White-Luck Warrior

[Rhadamanth]

Interesting question, I wonder if the No-God's presence affects other worlds as well. The Outside could be connected to all the worlds in the universe, which would explain one way the Inchoroi could be damned everywhere they go. If that is true, then the No-God could stop life everywhere.

One thing that bothered me was that the description of the No-God in that quote is that the silhouette stood with hands clasped like a monk and legs bent like a beast. Besides the Whirlwind and Carapace, this is the only description of what the No-God looks like. Anyone remember the descriptions of the Inchoroi or other things that might resemble that description of the No-God?

[Nerdanel]

One thing that bothered me was that the description of the No-God in that quote is that the silhouette stood with hands clasped like a monk and legs bent like a beast. Besides the Whirlwind and Carapace, this is the only description of what the No-God looks like. Anyone remember the descriptions of the Inchoroi or other things that might resemble that description of the No-God?

Well, I've been thinking that the half-monk half-beast figure is Kellhus himself as he truly is. Even though he represses his animal impulses, they aren't truly gone, just hidden behind his rational and rationalizing exterior.

I think the No-God in the vision is the leafless tree.

[Shryke]

One thing that bothered me was that the description of the No-God in that quote is that the silhouette stood with hands clasped like a monk and legs bent like a beast. Besides the Whirlwind and Carapace, this is the only description of what the No-God looks like. Anyone remember the descriptions of the Inchoroi or other things that might resemble that description of the No-God?

It's not supposed to be a literally picture I believe. It's more a dreamlike image.

It's a vision of something at once both enlightened and unenlightened.

[jurble]

I dunno, I still think the No-God is Beastman from Master of the Universe

[Amun]

I just found the mention of "worlds" instead of the "world" to be interesting in reference to the No-God. I mean, in the story we only know of the No-God as being a presence on Earwa. I never thought about maybe all the worlds of the Universe being connected to the Outside, which may have an effect on the life of all worlds. That's why I proposed that the No-God is the spirit of the Ark, since there is reference made to the ship being an actual living thing, and the Ark as it is known in Earwa is only like a skeleton. We know nothing of the Inchoroi before they crashed on Earwa, but if they were just as depraved before they crashed as they are after, then maybe they were like some sort of invasion force. The No-God had already visited other worlds, but only when he was an actual living thing: the Ark ship before it died.

I'm just trying to reconcile "worlds" with what we know, and that is that the No-God has only been on Earwa. Like I said, I don't know if this idea would fit thematically in the series, and it certainly doesn't explain the No-God's effects on fertility, but it doesn't seem too far out there, considering some other theories I've read about the series.

...or I'm absolutely full of it.

[lokisnow]

playing with Amon Ho Teps idea.

the ark is a living ship and the No-God is the soul/meta soul of the ship (perhaps it contains all the souls of the Inchoroi, which don't mix with other souls). But the Inchoroi, despite their advanced knowledge and tech have no conception of this. To them, the ark is an advanced bio-technological solution to long distance interstellar travel, a way to create new life for a new world, and not needing more than a few maintenance staff awake/born/alive at any given time to watch over things during millenia-long voyages. Unfortunately for the Inchoroi, they are from a world that evolved without souls being objective, where life is simply a biological process, with no objectively spiritual component. They crashed landed on a world (perhaps the only world?) that happened to evolve an objective soul and an objective spirit world (the Outside) that is in concert with the physical world. Their struggle to close the outside is an attempt to literally destroy the spirit world doppleganger so terrifying to them in the hopes to regain control of a world that is objectively normal to them. Perhaps the 'death' of the ark was a shock to them, as they thought they had conquered death, and they only realized after the fact, that the ark had died because the spirit component had been shocked into the spirit world and couldn't escape. The only way to save their species, and reunite the ark and its spirit (the no-god) is to close off the outside completely, which will force the spirit back into the ark, it will be able to revitalize itself and build and grow a new generation of Inchoroi.

[Rhadamanth]

Thanks Shryke, I hadn't really thought about it like that. That makes more sense than what I was thinking.

I love that idea lockesnow.

[Reek]

I just recently reread the passage where Acha/Seswatha and the prince are on the Ark. I got the impression that the only reason that Acha thought the Ark used to be a living being is because he didn't have the capacity to imagine a star-ship in mechanical terms. What I mean is it just seemed like speculation, not necessarily fact/canon.

Though I do agree that the Inchoroi have probably visited other worlds before crashing on Earwe.

[Amun]

I just recently reread the passage where Acha/Seswatha and the prince are on the Ark. I got the impression that the only reason that Acha thought the Ark used to be a living being is because he didn't have the capacity to imagine a star-ship in mechanical terms. What I mean is it just seemed like speculation, not necessarily fact/canon.

Though I do agree that the Inchoroi have probably visited other worlds before crashing on Earwe.

Hmmm... it's possible. I admit I haven't re-read that particular passage, so maybe the Ark being alive is just a metaphor for an advanced technology that Seswatha can't understand. i don't remember the details. I do find the idea that the Ark was a legitimately living spacecraft that the Inchoroi lived inside of to be genuinely creepy, though.

[unJon]

I just recently reread the passage where Acha/Seswatha and the prince are on the Ark. I got the impression that the only reason that Acha thought the Ark used to be a living being is because he didn't have the capacity to imagine a star-ship in mechanical terms. What I mean is it just seemed like speculation, not necessarily fact/canon.

Agree. My thoughts immediately went to the SF standby of frozen Inchies and or embryonic Inchies that were produced by the Tekne robots once they arrived. Crash landing took out 99.99% of the embryos (or something like that).

[Amun]

I re-read the passage in question and I'll paraphrase. Nau-Cayuti and Achamian as Seswatha are moving throught the tunnels. Nau-Cayuti makes a comment (I think about the architecture of the tunnels) about how it must be bones. This part was unclear to me, because the tunnels are filled with bones as well. The response:

"There are some," Achamian whispered, "who argue the entire Ark is a thing of bone, that vein and skin once pulsed across these walls."

Nau-Cayuti asks Achamian to clarify if he thinks the Ark was actually alive. Achamian says yes. Maybe this is just a way to simplify things for Nau-Cayuti, who probably wasn't as learned as Seswatha. Indeed, it is true that when Nau-Cayuti asks if the Ark mothered them,

Seswatha smiled. "Or fathered ... The fact is, we haven't the words for such things. Even if we could pierce the shroud of milennia, I fear this place would remain beyond our understanding."

This does seem to imply he is speaking about some form of the Tekne being beyond their understanding, but I don't see how this necessarily negates the possibilty of the Ark being an actual living thing. When I wrote about that, I never imagined the Ark as some naturally living creature on the Inchoroi home planet that they commandeered and turned into a ship. Nor did I imagine the Ark literally birthing the Inchoroi in a naturally evovlved process. Many mysteries remain to be said about the Inchoroi, their history and their original purpose before crashing on Earwa, and those may stay a mystery in the context of the Second Apocalypse, simply because the main villain is the Consult and only two Inchoroi are alive. But the one thing that can be said for certain is that the Inchoroi are masters when it comes to genetic manipulation. If everything attributed to them is truly non-sorcerous, then genetics is the only other tool they can be using.

So, yes, the passage was more ambiguous than I remember, but I still think the Ark was actually alive. The quote by Akka/Seswatha about skin and vein is very specific, and I think the Inchoroi used their skill in genetics to line the Ark in flesh. This is already something that was done with the dragons, who are living creatures with bones of iron. And the iron is literal, because in the Judging Eye we see a dragon skeleton rusting.

Now, my idea that I expressed in my earlier post about the No-God being the Arks spirit is pure speculation based off of one line and my belief that the Ark is truly alive. Since I think a living Ark would be a genetic creation of the Inchoroi, it might not even have a soul. I can't defend it any more than this and it can't be refuted, because there is no real evidence for or against it. Just an idea I threw out there because I though it was interesting.

[Roland_85]

Considering how powerful Inchoroi's science is (remember, they didn't even have mouths when they first met with the nonmen; they grew those), and how pretty much every one of their creations has been some sort of biological construct, I'd say the possibility that the Arc wasn't at least in part a product of bio-engineering is virtually non-existent. That said, I didn't really get the non-sorceros part. We see the Inchoroi Synthese using the Gnosis in The Darkness That Comes Before.

[jurble]

Well The Synthese blasts Inrau with some sort of air-pressure magic after Inrau's glowing hand tears out the one knight's heart. It isn't described very mathematically, so there's no reason it's necessarily gnostic as opposed to anagogic. But the Mangaecca is a Gnostic school, so it stands to reason the Inchoroi can employ gnostic spells.

[Rhadamanth]

Don't forget the part in TTT when Esmenet is possessed. Esmenet possessed is able to walk through Kellhus' wards and says something along the lines of wards are easy to pass when their author practices other arcana. I can't remember whether we came to a definite conclusion about whether they practice the Gnosis or something else.

[Roland_85]

I don't have the book with me, but I've translated it in my language, so I remember the passage. The Synthese said he was an Old Name, and that he will show Inrau "the Agonies". Sounds like sorcery to me, and anyway, considering the diminished form of the crow, there is not much else that it could be.

[Amun]

Sorry, I should have made myself more clear. I was talking about the Inchoroi pre-Consult/Mangaecca era. I don't doubt that the surviving Inchoroi brothers use the Gnosis, and the soul transfer to the Synthese and to Esmi when she is possessed is most certainly sorcery. But it seems the creation of the sranc, Bashrags, and Wracu are all done with the Tekne. All of these creatures were created in the war with the Nonmen, if I'm not mistaken. And the weapons of light described in the appendix strike me as being lasers or some sort of energy weapons. The Heron Spear certainly isn't sorcerous because it kills the No-God, who is protected by Chorae. Unless the Inchoroi learned sorcery from the Nonmen, and I don't remember if it ever says this or not, I think they only began using sorcery with the formation of the Consult, but, as always, I may be wrong.

[Rhadamanth]

Yeah, all that is a product of Tekne. Which brings me to the question, did it ever mention if dragons had souls? They seem rather intelligent, more than the other creations, but I don't think they do.

[Amun]

No I don't think it did. Considering the the skin spy with a soul was an accident, they probably don't.

[jurble]

You know, the Tekne is impressive and all, I mean genetic engineering, god damn. But why the focus on biological sciences? I mean, surely Aurang and Aurax know how to make a basic cannon? Neither of them were probably scientists, so it's taken them a few thousand years along with a bunch of humans to relearn everything about genetic engineering that was lost when the Inchoroi were destroyed, but why don't Skinspys have glocks? A gun isn't too hard. A laser-gun is, yeah, but I mean, where's the Consult guns?

I mean, sure, no tanks, I bet Golgotterath doesn't have any readly available fossil fuel source. But then again, they could probably genetic engineer Sranc that shit out gasoline.

I'm jus' sayin', if they get to Golgotterath and the Consult has nothing but Medieval technology, I'll be disappointed.

[Rhadamanth]

Is there gunpowder in Earwa? I'm guessing the genetic angle is probably because that's the only thing that still works in the ship and/or that gunpowder would change the game too much for RSB to handle easily. Better for him to focus on the ideas he has.