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White-Luck Warrior


Calibandar

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Well, the laws of chemistry on Earwa don't appear to be different, so I don't see why gunpowder would be impossible. Moreover, in the centuries it's taken them to learn the Tekne, I assume that the Consult must have learned Chemistry. Genetic engineering is reliant upon Chemistry, for obvious reasons. Gunpowder isn't exactly super-advanced chemistry either.

Moreover, the Inchoroi had laser-guns too. The only reason they stopped working was because the batteries ran out. Surely Aurang/Aurax could make a basic hydroelectric power plant to charge their lasers. They've had thousands of years to figure out 19th century technology. I mean, the rest of Earwa seems to be in the 1100's, technology-wise. A group of immortal intellectuals had to have gotten to the 19th century, at least.

It'd be hilarious if Akka finds the Heron Spear, only to find that its battery is dead.

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That assumes they actually know the science behind any of this. Which we, in fact, know they don't.

I know alot about, for instance physics, but without the internet or a book or something, I wouldn't know where to even START making gunpowder.

They are users of technology, not makers of it. As far as we know anyway.

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Iirc, in Darkness, Akka, upon seeing a Skin-spy, thinks that the Consult had finally mastered the Tekne ie. they must have been working with it for millenia (or a millennium, I forget how long ago the First Apocalypse was), and have finally reverse-engineered enough of what they'd seen to grasp some understanding of it. Unless they have computers or something where they just draw a skin-spy and have a machine shoot one out, but that would raise the question of why had it taken them so long to produce skin-spies if the technology was so easy to use.

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The Great Ordeal finally reaches the plains of Agongorea. They have fought hordes of Sranc on their way north, and now the they face the main body of the Consult, out in the open. There is confusion; their foe's numbers are small. Not many Sranc, one or two Bashrags. A dragon lounges lazily on the ground, seemingly oblivious to the massive force from the Three Seas that has set out on its holy war. The men stare, something moves between the thin ranks of the Consult. It is at this time the men of the Great Ordeal realize their mistake. It is a trap. Some new ferocious weapon rips into the men of the Three Seas.... freaking Gatling guns! What is this?

Sorcerors step into the air to strike down these new menaces of technology with their songs. But something is in the air. Not dragons. "Holy $#*t!" someone yells. Probably Exalt-General Saubon, but no one is listening, because they are watching planes! yes, planes, like old-fashioned WWII fighters, but they are not old-fashioned, because this is like medieval times. They spray the crowd of levitating sorcerors with their chorae ammo, striking them down, raining salt on the panicked soldiers below.

They flee, but it is no use. The Great Ordeal is defeated.

Kellhus watches from a distance. "Holy crap. How didn't I see this?"

The End.

Sorry, I just had to do it. It was too tempting.

To seriously address the issue of technology, it probably has mostly to do with the whole series being an epic fantasy. Bakker probably doesn't want to lose that with adding too many technological elements, but who knows what the Great Ordeal will find when they reach Golgotterath.

I can try to give a more apologetic answer though. The Consult would not have created guns or other technologies for themselves, because they figured they don't need them. Until the discovery of the skin spies, everyone thought they were dead or gone. They had no reason to believe that in 20 years that 1/4 million men would be marching north to destroy them. Their whole strategy seems to have been finding a way to resurrect Mog-Pharau. It makes sense, once he comes back to life, we can assume there would be another period of infertility, and with the Heron Spear gone, there is no real way to kill him, at least that we know of. All they needed was the No-God. Theoretically, they could have just waited 50 or 60 years until humanity started to go extinct from not having any children.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Bumping this thread to ask some questions.

I've recently reread the 4 books of Earwa, and there are some things that don't make sense to me. Or rather, I just don't understand. I would ask you guys to help me with this, because I'm going nowhere fast. I've read parts of some the threads on The Judging Eye and The White-Luck Warrior, and this the best place to raise those questions.

The first question is: was Moenghus' plan to let Kelhus come into the world and let him be the tool to destroy the consult? If so, why did Kelhus kill him? Because he realised Moenghus would come to realise he's doomed, and with his Dunyain Logos approach would try to make the Consult succeed to avoid damnation? Isn't this what drives Kelhus?

How crazy is Kellhus? We know he hears the No-God in TTT, and he sees halos around his hands. Then again, Esmenet sees them too.

What choice did Esmenet make? In TTT did she choose a life of riches, or did she really love Kelhus more than Akka? Now she seems to think she chose Kelhus for selfish reasons.

Someone upthread said that the Inchoroi originally didn'd have mouths. I completely missed that part. I do remember reading the final chapter in WP where one of the Inchoroi tortures the people from the northern village to win information on the Dunyain. It's mentioned the Inchoroi has a shell/oister-shaped head, with faces grafted on it. Also, it's skin is mostly translucent with cancerous spots. Did they always have this, or this part of their degeneracy (or perhaps compensating for lack of mouth re. faces)?

I hope you guys can shed some light on these matters.

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Bumping this thread to ask some questions.

The first question is: was Moenghus' plan to let Kelhus come into the world and let him be the tool to destroy the consult? If so, why did Kelhus kill him? Because he realised Moenghus would come to realise he's doomed, and with his Dunyain Logos approach would try to make the Consult succeed to avoid damnation? Isn't this what drives Kelhus?

How crazy is Kellhus? We know he hears the No-God in TTT, and he sees halos around his hands. Then again, Esmenet sees them too.

What choice did Esmenet make? In TTT did she choose a life of riches, or did she really love Kelhus more than Akka? Now she seems to think she chose Kelhus for selfish reasons.

Someone upthread said that the Inchoroi originally didn'd have mouths. I completely missed that part. I do remember reading the final chapter in WP where one of the Inchoroi tortures the people from the northern village to win information on the Dunyain. It's mentioned the Inchoroi has a shell/oister-shaped head, with faces grafted on it. Also, it's skin is mostly translucent with cancerous spots. Did they always have this, or this part of their degeneracy (or perhaps compensating for lack of mouth re. faces)?

I hope you guys can shed some light on these matters.

1. Yes

2. (what drives Kellhus) No one really knows

3. (is Kellhus crazy) no one really knows

4. Esme was manipulated and is at least aware of it by TJE

5. As for the Inchorai, it was mentioned in the appendix concerning the no-mouths part -- this was during their first encounter with the non-men.

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The first question is: was Moenghus' plan to let Kelhus come into the world and let him be the tool to destroy the consult? If so, why did Kelhus kill him? Because he realised Moenghus would come to realise he's doomed, and with his Dunyain Logos approach would try to make the Consult succeed to avoid damnation? Isn't this what drives Kelhus?

What choice did Esmenet make? In TTT did she choose a life of riches, or did she really love Kelhus more than Akka? Now she seems to think she chose Kelhus for selfish reasons.

1. Moenghus was killed because he was damned. Kellhus doesn't want a dead world (Happy Ents' twig passage), but his ultimate goal is unclear.

2. As Kellhus said, she doesn't love him. She worships him. She chose to become a part of something bigger instead of continuing her life as a lowly prostitute, because that's the most she could get by being with Akka. She regrets it on some level (Kellhus doesn't love her and her children are aliens), but it's still better than the other option.

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Thanks guys.

OK, so Kelhus' intentions are the point of the series. We're meant to find out as we go along.

re. Esmi: she wouldn't have to play the whore anymore with Akka, but it does seem she chose to be part of Kelhus' bigger picture. In The Judging Eye I thought she was downright bitter about her marriage. And she doesn't even want to be empress. She's clearly had enough of Kelhus as husband, otherwise she wouldn't seek out concubines for him.

Re. Inchoroi: I remember the passage. Two Inchoroi were brought before the king of the Nonmen (Cujura Cinmoi?), and executed. perhaps this was because they couldn't speak?

Someone else raised the point that everyone in the family calls Maithanet "uncle". He is referred to as Kelhus' brother. Esmi clearly knows he has some dunyain blood, although she may nog realise what dunyain really are. Since this is not used with any delicacy, every servant could know that Maithanet is Kelhus' brother. This cannot be good for Kelhus' pretentions.

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re. Esmi: she wouldn't have to play the whore anymore with Akka, but it does seem she chose to be part of Kelhus' bigger picture. In The Judging Eye I thought she was downright bitter about her marriage. And she doesn't even want to be empress. She's clearly had enough of Kelhus as husband, otherwise she wouldn't seek out concubines for him.

She wouldn't have to play the whore... but she would always BE the whore to everyone who knew her if she had gone back to Akka. She thought that by shacking up with Kellhus she could get respect from people that always scorned her. She didn't realize though that there is a difference between love and worship. She thought Kellhus loved her but really he just wanted her as a brood-mare (note that she is the only mate that produced viable offspring).

She hates Kellhus by the start of TJE but still acknowledges him as a living god.

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All has been said, but allow me to say it again…

The first question is: was Moenghus' plan to let Kelhus come into the world and let him be the tool to destroy the consult?

Yes.

If so, why did Kelhus kill him?

Moe doesn't believe in damnation. He thinks the Consult (and everybody else) is mistaken. However, the Consult still want to kill everybody, so Moe has decided to wage war against the Consult. Purely Dunyain reasons (it's difficult to control circumstance when you're dead).

Now, Kellus very much believes in damnation, the Outside, the god, etc. And he understands that If and when Moe finds out that the Consult (and everybody else) is right (i.e., the Dunyain are wrong) he will correctly side with the Consult.

Isn't this what drives Kelhus?

No. Kellhus chose life over death:

He stooped, pulled a twig from the straps of his right sandal. He studied it by moonlight, followed the thin, muscular branchings that seized so much emptiness from the sky. Tusk sprouting from tusk. Though the trees about him had died seasons previoulsy, the twig possessed two leaves, one waxy green, the other brown.[...]Everywhere, all about him. One world. The crossings were infinite, but they were not equal.[...]They were not equal.

How crazy is Kellhus?

Crazyness in Eärwa is defined by how much Outside seeps through you. Kellhus is god, so he's really, really crazy. Or holy. It's the same thing.

We know he hears the No-God in TTT, and he sees halos around his hands.

They are there. It's completely logical. Serwë saw them first, by the way. You'd have to be an unbeliever to not see them, and even then it's difficult.

Now she seems to think she chose Kelhus for selfish reasons.

She chose Kellhus because he is god. She doesn't think there's much of a choice. Assume the god you believed in chose you.

Someone upthread said that the Inchoroi originally didn'd have mouths.

Well, we only have a quote that they "birthed mouths" at that time. It could be poetic language for "learned to speak".

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Someone else raised the point that everyone in the family calls Maithanet "uncle". He is referred to as Kelhus' brother. Esmi clearly knows he has some dunyain blood, although she may nog realise what dunyain really are. Since this is not used with any delicacy, every servant could know that Maithanet is Kelhus' brother. This cannot be good for Kelhus' pretentions.

Possibly, but Kellhus, Esmenet, and Maithanet are the three most powerful human beings in the world and their desires are apparently in complete concord. It's not unnatural for Kellhus's family to treat him as one of their own, and few servants would dare dream it to be literally true.
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I'll be honest, the most intriguing character in the entire series is Cleric. Followed by the Captain. I was glad to see Akka grew some balls, and his roll in TJE was great.

But Esmi, and Khellus...not so much. And Bakker seems to have to have one person in his series that whines all the time, and now we have Sorweel....but i wish we could have met more of Sorweel's father. He seemed like a good man.

Ulimtately, i would like to see the Nonmen saved somehow by Cleric. Something during their travels frees him from the curse of his race, and he moves to help all the rest of his people.

And then they wipe out humanity and the consult. But if there is a battle with Akka and Cleric against Khellus, and Khellus wins, i'm done with the series. I love it, but i had such a hard time with Khellus in the first books that the TJE was a welcome relief. A return to Ninja Paul "Jesus" Atriedes i do not want.

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Thanks guys. That clears up some of my questions.

Possibly, but Kellhus, Esmenet, and Maithanet are the three most powerful human beings in the world and their desires are apparently in complete concord. It's not unnatural for Kellhus's family to treat him as one of their own, and few servants would dare dream it to be literally true.

This has the smack of plausability, but I doubt it. I mean, look at all the work Kelhus put into creating this idea of himself as the new god, even onto believing it himself. Whey then put his credibility at risk by conceding that Maithanet is his brother for no apparent reason? Maithanet himself calls Kelhus "my brother" at least once in The Judging Eye. It seems out of place, and out of character.

But Esmi, and Khellus...not so much. And Bakker seems to have to have one person in his series that whines all the time, and now we have Sorweel....but i wish we could have met more of Sorweel's father. He seemed like a good man.

Ulimtately, i would like to see the Nonmen saved somehow by Cleric. Something during their travels frees him from the curse of his race, and he moves to help all the rest of his people.

Cleric is a fascinating character. I do have to admit, though, that Sorweel was more readable the second time around. I had re-read The Judging once before, and purposely let his chapters out, just because I didn't feel like the whining. Last week, I re-read The Judging Eye again, and this time Sorweel didn't grate on me so.

Not the one the entire concept rotates upon. I mean, reading PoN AND hating Kellhus... it just does not compute.

I dunno, especially in PoN Kelhus is a right bastard. Unlike, say, Jaime, who is also a frightful bastard, but still he's quite amusing. Even his arrogance is fun to read. You can still like the story and dislike the characters.

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Last week, I re-read The Judging Eye again, and this time Sorweel didn't grate on me so.

I also just reread all the Sorweel chapters and think they are really great, and Sorweel is a great character.

In truth, I don't understand the argument about not liking "whining" characters, to the point of finding the sentiment suspect. What else do you want to read about if not the human soul in conflict with itself? That's what makes Sorweel, or Esmi, or Akka, or Catelyn interesting. Even Kellhus is only interesting (as a character instead of a force of nature) when he doubts. And Bakker has made doubt the moral cornerstone of these stories, his most cherished human quality.

If I want to read characters who do not fret I can go to Rand or Goodkind.

I dunno, especially in PoN Kelhus is a right bastard.

But he is stricken with pangs of compassion early on. So I don't even see that.

But more generally, how else should Kellhus be? Bakker wants to write a story where humanity is united in its attack on the consult, much like it is united in Tolkien's work—in fact, even more. (An interesting contrast is given by Martin's setup, where humanity is divided.) In Bakker's world, metaphysical entities have agency, and do indeed send a Messiah. The set-up in Middle-Earth, with the Istari is exactly the same. Bakker has thought long and hard about how such Messiah would work within the confines of his metaphysical set-up. How would he incarnate? In whom? What could he plausibly do within the constraints of his story.

Think about it: how would a Gandalf POV be? In particular, if Tolkien had made the psychology of leadership (control, discipline, deception, etc.) his focus. Just think about the first meeting in Bilbo's house, with the dwarves, from Gandalf's perspective. Tolkien himself actually lets Gandalf expound on his many ulterior motives in an unpublished dialogue after Sauron's destruction—he's a complete bastard, callously risking other people's lives because his "probability trance" tells him that there's a slight chance that Smaug will be taken out of the game for the war he assumes is coming in a few decades. A manipulative power player, zooming from court to court, installing, supporting, or terminating kings and stewards left and right. And all this underhanded scheming and lying just to – save the world. Ah, there's the rub.

Bakker's universe would not benefit from a character like Gandalf (sent from the Outside as a separate, fully formed individual cognisant of his role). Instead, Bakker wants somebody like Jesus or Paul Atreides. And Bakker treats us with a description of Jesus's realisation that he is the anointed one. I find it amazing!

How could Kellhus be more interesting? I don't get it. Should he fret more? He frets quite a lot. But "there was revelation," and that's pretty hard to argue with. Should he be nicer?

Or should he be less good at leadership? Should Bakker have written Kellhus more like Aragorn, who just appears out of nowhere, and where we are meant to just accept that this character is indeed able to assemble hosts around him because his blood tells us and he's wearing the right ring and sword? Or magic it away like Gandalf's stunning leadership skills are explained away using of the ring of fire?

Well, Bakker gives us both. There's the bloodline argument (Kellhus is an Anasûrimbor), and there's the magic argument (Kellhus has Saruman's ability to project his voice into the hearts of men because that's how Bakker's Outside works—most dramatically when Kellhus actually pulls Serwë's heart out). But Bakker cares a lot about this issue, so he gives us much more. Kellhus's natural (mundane) abilities for leadership have to be at least Hitler's, or Stalin's, or Muhammad's. But Bakker turns this up yet another notch with the Dunyain training and breeding. So Kellhus has Aragorn's (semi-mythical) bloodline, Saruman's (magical) voice, Muhammad's (mundane) leadership, and perfect empathy (mundane, but exaggerated to the extent that Terrence Tao's intelligence overshadows mine).

This I can believe. Such a figure could lead a host of two hundred thousand over thousands of miles (after twenty years of preparation, including wars, infrastructure, administration, propaganda) through hostile territory to face absolute evil. Take anything away from the conception of Kellhus, and his effect becomes a postulate, like Tolkien's postulate about Aragorn.

How is Kellhus not great stuff? I don't get it? And how would the story become more interesting if Kellhus actually turned out to go Moënghus on us all? Bakker's entire groundwork is done to give us a believable version of the fantasy trope of a "world of men united against Sauron". I think he pulls it off, and I haven't seen anything even close. Why would Bakker want to deflate that ambition by making Kellhus change his mind? Would the Lord of the Rings have been more interesting if Gandalf had changed sides, like Saruman?

(But imagine for a while if LotR had a Gandalf POV and a Denethor POV. Some readers would hate Gandalf, and think it would be a weak story if in the end it turned out that Gandalf really, actually, just wants to save the world.)

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