White-Luck Warrior

[Paxter]

I would have thought that the word "Consult" should be interpreted by reference to its (now archaic) meaning:

a secret meeting, especially one for seditious purposes. (Dictionary.com)

That definition would reflect the fact that the Mangaecca (which has now been absorbed into the Consult) had, in a sense, secretly conspired against the other schools via their heretical investigations of the Ark and the Tekne.

As for the Mandate Schoolmen, maybe it has something to do with the fact that the schoolmen have a kind of "mandate" (in the political sense) to act on behalf of Seswatha and save the world from the Consult following the Grasping and their inheritance of Seswatha's dreams.

[lokisnow]

Much discussion has been made about Kellhus' children having the ability to read people's faces despite having limited to no conditioning in the Dunyain way.

What if they're not reading faces at all?

What if they're merely doing the human thing and taking on the manor and style of speaking of their father? If they've seen Kellhus use his abilities all their lives they've repeatedly heard the way he speaks to people and what he tells them, they can organize this into a Kellhus vocabulary, just the way we humans learn and implement vocabularies all the time, and then reapply it to situations they encounter where they need to "appear" to read faces/souls. Because they speak from an unquestionable position of authority as Kellhus' children they are already in an advantaged position to implement his privileged vocabulary of judgment. They perform no actual analysis, but like all religious figures of authority, they say the right words, and when saying words like that, people tend to believe them, internalize them and view them through their own lens of their own life. so in essence his kids can say the right Kellhus-sounding things and mess with peoples heads quite effectively because of people's expectations of being read. "If they said that about me it must be true!"

In other words, they're not doing what kellhus does at all, they're pulling off a semantic trick because they're in the right position of authority so people are inclined to believe them anyway.

[Rhadamanth]

Interesting idea lockesnow, however, I believe the evidence supports Kellhus' children have the ability to read faces. Children are exceptionally adept at reading faces and emotions in our world, so it stands to reason that a child of Kellhus would have little trouble reading the expressions and divining their meaning. Kellhus was trained in the manner he was because none of the senior Dunyain showed facial expressions, only the children. Perhaps his training also enhanced his abilities. I believe that watching Kellhus play the people around him as well as their own observational abilities was enough for his children to deduce a great deal. The fact that his kids could discern skin spies is reason enough for me to believe they would be able to mimic his abilities but there are other examples. I wonder how much Kellhus' ability to reenact the movements of another's soul as if they were his own was passed to his kids?

[T'ilimyakos]

im with pax hispanica. the three titles of the books seem to be named after the three major players in the upcoming second apocalypse: the aspect emperor (kellhus), the white luck warrior (yatwer and her followers), and the consult. although having kellhus and the consult engage in an executive boardroom style meeting would be quite a surprise.

to lockesnow: i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the book that kellhus' weird sorceress daughter has already proven herself adept at spotting skinspies in the andiamine heights. however, the scenes involving kellhus' eldest true son, kayutas, seem to point me in the direction that he's got a mild form of autism or asperger's syndrom. he doesn't seem nearly as keen as his father and even admits it to sorweel. he's unable or lacks the desire to sway sorweel like kellhus can. this seems to steel sorweel's desire to throw his lot in with yatwer, but i can't tell whether or not kayutas' shortcomings in this department are overlooked by kellhus or part of his scheme.

[Rhadamanth]

Aspect Emperor is the title of the second trilogy like Prince of Nothing was the title of the first trilogy, as well as the first book. The Judging Eye is the title of the fourth book and the first in the Aspect Emperor series. I think the titles just refer to a major plot point of the books.

All of Kellhus' children are less powerful than he is due to their mother being world born rather than Dunyain. Kayutas' only shortcoming seems to be his lack of sorcerous ability. I think Theliopa fits the idea of Asperger's or autism better.

[Kalbear]

I thought that one of the things Kellhus taught his kids from an early age was how to read faces and the like. There was talk about the "Whelming" - which was a Dunyain practice - and I gathered he was teaching his kids from an early start how to do things. They'd naturally have some of this ability passed down to them, but a lot of it would be simply interpreting what they were seeing.

[T'ilimyakos]

i'd say kayutas is book smart, but as far as interpersonal relations go, he's kind of a dick to sorweel. which could just be kellhus' desire. kayutas just seems off a little to me, like a spoiled child who's used to having people grovel at his feet.

rhadamanth: you're right, my bad. i haven't even looked at the title of the book in a hot minute; i forgot the trilogy title was aspect emperor and not the book title. and now that you mention it, theliopa does seem way weirder and less empathetic than kayutas like she's a robot.

[Rhadamanth]

I think if you were born with the ability, or learned, to read the emotions of everyone you meet, you might be a little jaded or dickish to people unless you worked at it. I think part of Kayutas' purpose is to make Sorweel believe that he and Kellhus' other children are much more than he is yet still approachable. Kayutas makes a point of reading Sorweel and telling him exactly what he's feeling. He then extends a hand of friendship (sort of) to make him feel better. Later on, he makes Sorweel kneel but makes a joke of it. A less effective version of Kellhus' coercion of Akka's group, I think.

About the Whelming, I forgot about that. I just remembered that Kellhus seemed so distant to all of his children. So it appears that Kellhus' kids did receive some training, which we could assume probably included the ways of thought, limb, and face. Since Kelmomas hadn't seen a skin spy until the moment in the book, which was after his Whelming, they didn't use them as subjects. I wonder if they used techniques similar to the Dunyain or something else?

Edit: I just googled Dunyain and apparently there's someone named Serwe Dunyain on Facebook. A joke? I dunno, but it made me laugh.

[jurble]

Edit: I just googled Dunyain and apparently there's someone named Serwe Dunyain on Facebook. A joke? I dunno, but it made me laugh.

Almost certainly a joke.

[Rhadamanth]

I figured as much when I looked at "her" 5 friends.

[Nerdanel]

I've been thinking that of all the Kellhus's children, Theliopa is the closest to a real self-moving soul, closer than Kellhus himself, even. Theliopa doesn't conform to the Three Seas ideals of beauty, although I rather suspect her thinness and big dresses would be received rather differently in our world. Her aesthetics come from the inside, which is much like not having any as far as the people around her are concerned.

On the other hand, I think Kelmomas is probably the one of Kellhus's children to be the most thoroughly victim to his circumstances. He imagines himself the unmoved mover but that is only because he completely fails to perceive the darkness that comes before him.

[Rhadamanth]

I could be wrong, but I remember Theliopa as having emotional troubles. I remember Esmi saying something about that, don't remember exactly what though. That would seem to negate the possibility of her being a self moving soul. I agree with you about Kelmomas, Nerdanel. He seems to be the only one of Kellhus' children to have emotions that approach normal, he's more of a psychopath than amoral like the Dunyain seem to be.

[Mighty Belwas]

Anyone else think there is a possibility that Kosoter is a skin spy that was captured and conditioned by Kellhus over the years to do his bidding? He seems slightly superhuman, with him being the only one standing and not on the floor panting for air. Reminds me of a bit of that skin spy knight that road with the elite "templar" like cavalry in the first series.

[jurble]

I've been thinking that of all the Kellhus's children, Theliopa is the closest to a real self-moving soul, closer than Kellhus himself, even.

Theliopa isn't closer to being a self-moving soul than Kellhus. She seems autistic, that's a major disadvantage in Dunyain-ness. Dunyains have super-empathic powers, they can read emotions like a book. Theliopa is incredibly stunted in that regard vis-a-vis Kellhus. A self-moving soul needs the empathic powers of a Dunyain in order to better understand circumstance, and thus master circumstance. The Dunyain in Ishual are probably closest to self-moving souls, in that Dunyain is such a controlled environment that every single gust of wind can be pre-determined.

[jbpark]

Anyone else think there is a possibility that Kosoter is a skin spy that was captured and conditioned by Kellhus over the years to do his bidding? He seems slightly superhuman, with him being the only one standing and not on the floor panting for air. Reminds me of a bit of that skin spy knight that road with the elite "templar" like cavalry in the first series.

I don't know... seems rather implausible. Didn't they only meet once, when Kellhus titled him 'Ironsoul' for some epic deed while scaling a wall or something? I suppose the skin-spy could have come afterwards, killed the real Kosoter then replaced him, but when you consider how Kosoter is a pretty emotionless fellow who has yet to demonstrate any sort of overwhelming lust (like the skin spies), doesn't seem very likely.

[Mighty Belwas]

I don't know... seems rather implausible. Didn't they only meet once, when Kellhus titled him 'Ironsoul' for some epic deed while scaling a wall or something? I suppose the skin-spy could have come afterwards, killed the real Kosoter then replaced him, but when you consider how Kosoter is a pretty emotionless fellow who has yet to demonstrate any sort of overwhelming lust (like the skin spies), doesn't seem very likely.

I was just stating due to his seemingly super-human stamina and fighting ability and him being 40+ years old. I also remember once that a skin-spy was killed because Kellhus would'nt have had enough time to properly interrogate it. I could be wrong but I thought it was alluded to in a circuitous manner that Kellhus could make them (skin spies) do what he wanted/recondition them. I'll browse through my copies of the TFT and TJE.

[lokisnow]

I was just stating due to his seemingly super-human stamina and fighting ability and him being 40+ years old. I also remember once that a skin-spy was killed because Kellhus would'nt have had enough time to properly interrogate it. I could be wrong but I thought it was alluded to in a circuitous manner that Kellhus could make them (skin spies) do what he wanted/recondition them. I'll browse through my copies of the TFT and TJE.

clearly he vivisects their brains (or magically vivisects them) ala Neil to short out all sexual impulses and rewire them for perfect loyalty to him.

[Nerdanel]

IIRC when Theliopa was a baby she was weird in that she didn't cry when she was hungry. I think this kind of thing actually supports the idea that she is a self-moving soul or as close to one as any character we have seen yet in the books. Theliopa isn't impelled to act by impulses like hunger. Instead, I think she has reasoned with her formidable intellect that eating is necessary to keep her alive. She could have easily starved to death before she figured out the connection between eating and living. This is a truly alien viewpoint.

Being a self-moving soul is not about moving others. In fact, I'd think a true self-moving soul would have trouble with that kind of thing, at least at first, since they would think so very differently from everyone else. Imagine having to figure out the structures of the local social system from the first principles instead of just automatically absorbing them. Moreover a true self-moving soul (if such is even possible) wouldn't automatically be affected by the same herd-instincts normal people are, so they might not particularly care about manipulating others.

[Rhadamanth]

The only problems I find with your hypothesis is that a self-moving soul would not have any of the afflictions Theliopa possesses. Her detachment supports your theory but her trembling at Esmenet's touch suggests that she isn't completely detached. Something causes her to tremble at her mother's touch, something she cannot control easily. Something from the darkness that comes before her.

[Amun]

In order to stay on topic, I'll say I have no idea what will happen in the next book other than what the brief synopsis has to say. I do think the Great Ordeal will finally encounter more resistance in the form of Sranc and maybe Bashrag attacks. I will make a guess and say they will finally reach either Golgotterath or the nearby area. As for the White-Luck Warrior himself, I think he will stay in the Three Seas region and confronting Esmenet and Kellhus's family. If Kellhus faces the warrior himself, it will be if he does one of those teleportation trips where he moves from horizon to horizon and goes to Three Seas. I don't see a scenario where the White-Luck Warrior tries to go north and face Kellhus, but who knows besides the author?

Now, seeing how this has turned into the latest thread to debate the series as a whole, I recently re-read a section of the Warrior Prophet that I found interesting. It's on page 540 of the American paperback copy when Kellhus is tied up with Serwe's body and he has a vision of what seems to be the No-God. I'll quote

Framed by the wheeling heavens, the figure spoke, a million throats in his throat, a million mouths in his mouth ...

What do you see?

The silhouette stood, hands clasped like a monk, legs bent like a beast.

Tell me ...

Whole worlds wailed in terror.

The word worlds is what interested me. Does this mean that whatever the No-God is, he has been on other worlds too? It reminded me how during one of Achamian's dreams as Seswatha, when he and Nau-Cayutas have entered the Ark, there is a comment how the Ark is only the skeleton of something once alive. A giant womb of the Inchoroi or something to that extent. I can't remember if this is in the Warrior Prophet or the Thousandfold Thought, so I cant quote it.

So... what if the No-God is the spirit of the Ark, something totally alien to the Earwan Gods, and something that can be summoned, but only with the help of the Tekne. I feel like I'm rambling now. I don't really know if I support this argument; it doesn't explain the infertility and what-not, and I don't think I like it as much as some other thoeries, but I just wanted to throw it out there to add to the discussion.