In defense of the Others

[R'hllor-Is-The-Truth]

We discussed it before and no, I am not sure they are all that bad. It is quite probable that they are no worse than humans, which is pretty fucking low standard, of course. We know what humans do to each other, to their neighbours even, from others so far we only saw agression towards another species (humans). Again, children of forest (or Indians, for that matter) didn't fare that well after arrival of other humans, why Others should be so much better to us than our own species? Maybe they have some "ideology", maybe it used to be their land or whatever, so perhaps they even have more "justification" (inasmuch as there can be justifications for murder) than europeans (among others) did when they arrived to other people's country and took other, enslaving or killing off the natives.

I don't think it is necessary for Others to be super Evil, anyway, if they want to harm humans than we will be against them for this simple fact. Even though they might be slightly morally superior to us, even.

I think it is far more complicated than just the pure bad guys (the others) versus the good guys (the nights watch and the rest of westeros). I think the Others are a part of the children of the forest and something happened which made them snap.

Maybe Bran is going is going to explain some of that stuff

[salt]

Are giant ice spiders really so bad? I cannot think of a single time in my life I've ever had an ice spider give me trouble.

[Kade Blackwood]

Here's what we know: nothing in the books are black and white.

• We thought we knew that Rhaegar was an evil bastard who raped Lyanna half a hundred times. Now we think differently.
  
• We thought we knew that Sandor Clegane was just an angry, evil man especially since he hacked a little boy in two and smiled about it. Now we think differently.
  
• We thought we knew that dragons were dead in the world until Dany managed to birth three of the suckers. Now we know differently.
  
• We thought that Jon Arryn was killed by a sick plot of the Lannisters until Lysa told on herself. Now we know differently.
  
• We thought a lot of things. We thought that plenty of plot points were cut-&-dry. Black-&-white. If GRRM has taught us anything it is that there are many shades of gray in Westeros and the realms beyond.
  

Pointedly, we thought we knew that the Wildlings were a menace to the Seven Kingdoms. The brothers of the Night's Watch even feel it's their duty to defend the Seven Kingdoms against the Wildlings even to the extent of opening themselves up to the Others. But we got to see that they are more than that and with that in mind, if we think that the Others are really purely evil then we're ignoring the way GRRM has set up his stories so far.

I think it is rather clear that the Others are going to be presented to us in an area of grey instead. I see the Others as the flip side of dragons. Dragons aren't evil as much as they are a representation of the elemental force of fire. The Others are a representation of this elemental force of ice. Additionally, similar to how we were introduced to the idea that not all of the beings north of the Wall are evil (and by extension, the Others come from north of the wall and may not be evil either) what we've seen from the dragons is probably somewhat indicative of what we can expect from the Others. While Drogon is accused of attacking an innocent girl, we don't see it happen. Through the perspective of the character Dany we are introduced to the idea that Drogon may not have done so and the death of the girl through the mouth of a dragon is a lie. When Drogon shows up at the fights, the notion that he is drawn by the blood and fighting is raised. It's a function of his nature. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he only attack a dying human and one who is aggressive towards him? When the Dornish and their hired help show up to release the other two, we're talking about two dragons kept from their mother and cooped up in a comparatively tiny box; they're being caged and driven mad.

This isn't to say that the Dragons are cuddly as puppies and that if no human provoked them, they'd never be eaten. But we can say that in times where we see dragons attacking humans, there's been blood spilled (which attracted the dragon) and the dragon has been attacked.

With the Others, we can expect no less. They are not understood by humans, that much we can tell. That they kill humans certainly doesn't make them any more murderous abominations that any of the characters in the book who've killed women, children, babes at the breast, etc...

[soob]

After the others are defeated and no longer pose a threat to the humans, I can see them being romanticized, pitied, and eventually allowed to run casinos and sell untaxed cigarettes.

[Chalais]

Personally i view the Others as an HP Lovecraft style villian, something so alien that their very nature is both unknowable and maddening to regular humans.

[1234567]

Also can Other and humans co-exist?

What is the true story behind the Night King, who spied an Other female from the wall and then married her. Then they ruled the wall for 13 years. No invasions but okay a few sacrifices to the others. It seems they were doing fine, still protecting the wall and then it all stops because the Wildlings under Jouram (guy who had the special horn, but I can't spell his name) and the Stark in Winterfell joined forces to crush him and erased his deeds and name from history. There sounds like there is more to this story and suggests the Others are not so evil.

[1234567]

Personally i view the Others as an HP Lovecraft style villian, something so alien that their very nature is both unknowable and maddening to regular humans.

I thought that was the thing that attacked the 'prentice boys! :D

[Lady of Long Lake]

As someone new to the series I think the Others have to be evil for no other reason then you need some external force to come in and take advantage of the civil war that left the country defenseless and open to conquest otherwise there wouldn't have been much point to it.

Welcome to the forum:)

Was there a civil war going on the one other time the Others appeared, 8000 years ago? See this is where Sam comes in. I need him to figure out the common denominator of the two uprisings of the Others. Get reading Sam!

[Timur Khal]

Welcome to the forum:)

Was there a civil war going on the one other time the Others appeared, 8000 years ago? See this is where Sam comes in. I need him to figure out the common denominator of the two uprisings of the Others. Get reading Sam!

the ultimate problem is that this wasn't the first civil war since then, there have been plenty recorded ones mentioned which would all be pretty good in timing...and also because the Others didn't restart in mobilizing (the GoT prologue, War with Wildlings) until the realm had actually regain stability under the Baratheon regime.

[Pomp & Happenstance]

Really? We're arguing over whether or not the Others are "evil"? At first I thought some of you were simply jesting... but it appears there are plenty of people out there ready to defend any & every action presented by them thus far.

* Besides evil being an interpretation, and subject to opinion, discrepancies, and POV… every perception we have in life as humans, especially those pertaining to morals, are based entirely off of what we as humans have done in the past. That being said, nothing is more evil, or more kind, than a human… the worst atrocities and the kindest actions; (blowing up nukes or running into a burning building for a stranger) *

Some could argue that being evil isn’t necessarily achieved by being bad, but by not having the potential to be good….anyways. Let's go off of what we have in evidence for the Others so far... factoring both visual confirmations and mere hearsay.

Prologue of aGoT:

The first chapter of the series is from Will's POV, who is on the Night's Watch. Will is a pretty insignificant character for the most part. He joined the NW after being caught hunting on House Mallister's land, and being offered a choice of losing a hand or taking the black. (Overall, his crime is considered "petty", as he was likely hunting for survival) Will is extremely skilled in tracking, and is noticeably stealthier than his fellow NW Rangers.

Sir Waymar Royce was the 3rd son of Bronze Yohn, and joined the NW because it was likely he wasn't going to have many chances for wealth or land. While laughed at by other NW men (in their cups), for his fine "lords" garb, other than his affinity for being a prick (as young lords often are) he has committed no noticeable sins/atrocities.

With the two character's who "first" met the Others having been introduced as normal/varied/generic men, GRRM starts turning the plot about halfway into the Prologue... The group of "unmoving or dead" people that Will had spotted vanished, along with their weapons. (We as readers know to suspect something, as the credibility of a hunter as skilled as Will is foolish to doubt so soon.) Shortly thereafter, an eerie calm falls over the woods, and as soon as Will gets some separation between him and Royce, the Others appear.... [this could be considered “spooky” writing]

The skirmish ensues shortly thereafter, with Royce playing the scared, inexperienced, young lord; and the Others (being viewed in Will's eyes) as Mystical beings with intelligence, skill, and with an aura of cold. The Others encircle Royce methodically, and engaged in single-combat.... seemingly taunting him during the fray. Shortly thereafter, Royce's sword shatters from contact with the crystalline ice-sword of the other, and the Others execute him, with almost synchronized actions.... Will later gathers the shattered sword for evidence, but before he can leave, Royce returns as a Wight and "kills" Will.

* The NW was on a Patrol for Wildlings, Will saw them but they were already “dead”, then they were gone, then all of a sudden it’s super cold, and the others appear, battle, leave, then wight-Royce attacks*

From that series of events we know the Others are Magical, Intelligent, Armed and Armored, and especially deadly. Their actions show brutality, but it is true that is not necessarily “evilness”.

Non-Others beyond the Wall:

The Giants, The Thenns, The Magnar, The dozens if not hundreds of Wildling Clans, all joined with Mance to head south away from The Others. They fled. In the known history of the Wildlings, their purpose is to be free folk, only traveling south and threatening The Seven Kingdoms if harsh weather (Winter/Snow) or lack of resources put them in dire straights. However, this time Mance's purpose was because of the Others.

Any Wildling/Free Folk Clan, The Giants, & The Children of the Forest are all against the Others. Meaning this "Feud" isn't due to some distorted "Humans are really the evil ones" theory; because tCotF made peace with first men, the Giants have peace with wildlings and some open-minded characters like Jon Snow, etc... Any and every other race presented thus far has the capability for peace, love and understanding. Where do we see that with the others?

Others = Positive

Can anyone honestly name one instance of an Other or Wight doing something positive? Since you could argue all day long that this action or that action may or may not be Evil / SortaEvil / VeryLittleEvil…

You may say "Oh! But Mr. P&H, there was that Other Queen who married the 13th LC of the NW! Surely that shows that capability for compassion by them!"

- The 13 LC was on the wall when he spotted a pale woman in the woods to the north.... shortly thereafter Married her, declared her the Night Queen and Himself the King. He ruled from the Nightfort which has been deserted for 200 years (because Alysanne Targ wanted "Deep Lake" built, aprox. 7 miles away). After declaring himself king, he used sorcery to bind the brothers of the NW to him. He ruled for 13 years before the King of the North and Joramun and his Wildlings (with the horn of winter/joramun supposedly) killed them. It was later discovered that he (like Craster) had made sacrifices to the Others. Due to this, a large portion of his record has been deleted/destroyed.

*While the victors write history, what little there is written of the Others has never been good*

[slnko-v-siete]

The Others are a huge question mark now. Since we've seen the Children of the Forest - something I didn't expect - I'm hoping we'll get a look at the Others and their culture. I'd like to know more about their wants/needs/desires.

GRRM seems to resist the binary opposition of good and evil in his novels. Instead, there is a spectrum of ethical and unethical behavior in which characters engage. "The Other" is a concept in literature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other) that is used to separate and dehumanize people of other cultures, religions, &tc. (A perfect example is Bram Stoker's Dracula, where Dracula represents an Eastern and sexualized immigrant masculinity that threatens Victorian values.) It's now common for authors to present the concept, only to later undermine it. (There is already the story of an Other-like woman who historically married a disgraced Night's Watch commander, right?) I think that the Others will eventually be "named", their motivation revealed, and their nature as simply another magical race of humanoids (as opposed to agents of a supreme Evil, such as the opposite of R'hllor) solidified.