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In defense of the Others


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I admired the sheer audacity of this post, so decided to create a thread around it. Are the Others really the bad guys? Or are they a misunderstood race, driven to the most inhospitable location, just trying to eke out a humble existence in the face of bloodthirsty xenophobic humans who plan on using dragons to commit genocide against the only other sentient race to inhabit Westeros. We report, you decide.

First of all, we can be fairly certain the Others do not seek the destruction of all human life. Even if it wasn't for that the fact that its the most cliche thing ever, we have the evidence of Craster, who was allowed to live provided he gave payment, his sons.

Its not like there's a lack of reasons for them to attack humans. They are, after all, stuck in a tiny corner of a world dominated by humanity. They might want more space, revenge or any number of possible things.

As for them enjoying toying with Royce, thats only one possible interpretation of the scene. Maybe they were scared of his sword, as they all attack after one of them breaks it and we know they're vulnerable to certain substances like obsidian. The others haven't fought humans for thousands of years, who says they're any more knowledgeable about their weaknesses than humans are?

Another possible interpretation is that the Other who attacks first is making some kind of demonstration. Kind of like 'see, these humans are nothing to fear.' To train the other Others, or convince them that attacking humans is safe, or what have you. The point is, it could be anything, practically.

When have the humans ever tried communicating with the Others? Both sides have simply attacked on sight. To say that this makes the Others worse than the humans is biased at best.

We don't know the details behind the events of the Long Night. But it does seem likely that then, like now, they were holed up in a small section of the world, with humans everywhere else. Also, they were attacked on sight by any humans. Seems to me that'd turn even the most peaceful race into manic xenophobes. Sure, they probably hate humans. But its not like they don't have a reason. And its too far back to know which side struck first, as it were.

Thanks to Leech lord for his analysis.

So, are the Others really just hottie Cylons who need a Gauius Baltar to swing them to the side of angels? Discuss.

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Of course not. Everyone just missed the chapter when The Others invited Sam back to their place for cinnamon rolls and hot coco and explained that the reason they are coming down to the Wall cause they are freezing their nips off. ;)

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We discussed it before and no, I am not sure they are all that bad. It is quite probable that they are no worse than humans, which is pretty fucking low standard, of course. We know what humans do to each other, to their neighbours even, from others so far we only saw agression towards another species (humans). Again, children of forest (or Indians, for that matter) didn't fare that well after arrival of other humans, why Others should be so much better to us than our own species? Maybe they have some "ideology", maybe it used to be their land or whatever, so perhaps they even have more "justification" (inasmuch as there can be justifications for murder) than europeans (among others) did when they arrived to other people's country and took other, enslaving or killing off the natives.

I don't think it is necessary for Others to be super Evil, anyway, if they want to harm humans than we will be against them for this simple fact. Even though they might be slightly morally superior to us, even.

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Wow.... didn't realise I'd made that big an impression.

But yeah, ever since I realised that the morally grey tone of the series, I've been very suspicious of the Other's supposed evilness. The rest was just looking at what info we have in a new light.

Mind you, I don't expect GRRM to reveal things either way. He's always liked using the limited perspective, and I think this would be a brilliant way to pull it off: make an entire race seem evil until you actually take a step back and look at it from an unbiased perspective. Could even be the bittersweet ending: the realisation that there didn't have to be war. Who knows.

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The Other said something in a language Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched the steel shattered.

A scream echoed through the forst night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

That is Waymar's death scene in the prologue. He is mocked, laughed at, and butchered. Your quote talks about Waymar breaking a sword, but he breaks his own. It got so cold from touching the Other's sword that it is literally shattered.

I am all for different interpretations but this one is a leap. All you are doing is arguing the semantics of the word evil.

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Of course not. Everyone just missed the chapter when The Others invited Sam back to their place for cinnamon rolls and hot coco and explained that the reason they are coming down to the Wall cause they are freezing their nips off. ;)

Ahhh, but we all know how violent Sam is. He's quite vicious and never misses a fight. Likes to be in the thick of the battle, starts fights on his own when things seem to be getting dull. That's why Lord Randyll Tarly sent him to the wall. He couldn't have such a violent son take control of his lands (Sam may have even been planning patricide) and starting wars with his neighbors. He realized that it would be better to send Sam somewhere that he could get his bloodlust on and help the realm. The Wall was just the place. There probably could have been peace between the Others and humans if only that hyper-aggressive Samwell Tarly wasn't there.

:rofl:

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The Others have the potential to become the most cost effective purveyors of ice cream and sundry frozen goods throughout the seven kingdoms. Side effects may include death and mocking laughter delivered from ice spiders.

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That is Waymar's death scene in the prologue. He is mocked, laughed at, and butchered.

Imagine that a party of Others entered Westeros territory and encountered Clegane's men. Imagine that Others were weaker, not stronger. What would happen to them? The only difference is, Clegane's men or Bloody Mummers would probably torture Other Waymar for hours for shits and giggles. Does it mean that all humans are Evil with capital E? Others really don't like us, that is clear. Although there may be some small "Humans are Others too" or "Against cruelty to humans" party within Other ruling class, if they have any. Doubtful though, these aren't XX century Others. Maybe in hundreds of years after great Other victory they will find remaining humans and grant them some of the lands and then visit them there buying pieces of valyrian swords as souvenirs and have great Other guilt and something.

For all we know, Others may be always nice to one another, which would make them morally superior to humans. Since humans kill, torture, rape each other, it's hard to expect that others would be nice to other species - although it would be cool if they were. People can dehumanize one another based on ethnicity, color skin, religion. So if Others can't empathize with someone who really is utterly different from them, it is sad but not surprising. I don't believe Humans would be nicer to Others than others are to humans. Maybe we even "started first", who knows.

It would be interesting to read history of Seven Kingdoms (maybe Great Land of Others in otherspeak) from Other POV.

Me, I am more interested as to why Others were content to sit on their asses for so long and now suddenly want to take over Westeros, supposedly. What happened?

Anyway, Others not being 100% evil would not/will not prevent bloody conflict. People aren't 100% evil either and look what happened at Riverlands.

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I want the Others to be some perversion of human being.

Thats my guess too, to be honest - it really dosen't sit right with the tone fo series to have a dark lord on a dark throne all of the sudden. At the same time, I don't expect to find the Others actually have factions and issues and some of them are really quite nice and just a bit misunderstood - thats what we have with all the properly human characters.

I think its going to end up tied with magic somehow in the end - its strongly suggested that dragons are a kind of wellspring of magic in the world, and also that theres a certain tension, paticularly with the maesters for/against magic, and I think the Others may be the flip side of that. My theory is that Danys dragons could happen only becuase they're only the second half of the magic-resurrection, that already started with the Others, so magic is a balance to mundanity and ordinariness and general muggliness, but it dosen't just bring thrill and excitment and dragons, but also the cold, nasty corruption of humanity that are the Others. (The theme of having or not having magic to shape your view of the world comes up in other GRRM stories too.)

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I like the idea of the Others being something completely different than what we expect so far, and the possibility they aren't evil, or are no more evil than humans, doesn't seem far-fetched to me.

I agree with Datepalm that they are somehow tied into the magic of the world; also perhaps tied into legend, too. I find it significant that everyone in Bran's POV stresses the idea of "going North" to where the real action is, and that he is on some sort of spiritual journey because of this and other events. To me it connects to the ambiguity and confusion of all the other legendary Brans (Bran the Builder, etc.) and I'm expecting some sort of cyclical story line here...maybe this Bran will be the one to break the cycle with his third eye insight into the true nature of Others?

Not that my predictions were too clever while reading the first books, but I'd be disappointed if the Others were just evil then defeated or something ordinary like that.

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For me, I always saw the others as evil - although more because they are predators of humanity than any internal characteristics. I don't buy the relativistic notions of right or wrong, in my book if you are out to intentionally kill a bunch of innocent human beings that makes you evil, regardless if you're nice to your mum. For now, every suggestion that GRRM provided indicates that the others are pure evil.

At the end of the day, I'm only a human being reading a book about other human beings, dragons, and Others. Sure some human beings might be pure evil as well, but that doesn't change the fact that when you have a bunch of wrights running around killing some good humans and all indications they want to kill more, that makes them evil.

But that is merely my parochial viewpoint. I daresay if any of us traded places with someone on the night's watch or perhaps eventually the average Northman, we'd feel the same. Not because of tradition. But because some pasty faced scary folks wanted to kill everyone we ever knew or loved.

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I think if someone is hell bound to kill you, you won't give a shit just how "evil" they "objectively" are (if there is such thing, and I don't think there is). I mean, crocodiles aren't evil. Cold comfort though if they bite off your leg. I see no reason why they shouldn't from their POV. Evil is just a human word, anyway. Others might think in completely different terms. ETA: And of course it is all matter of perspective - Tyrion's chain is evil for soldiers of True King Stannis, burned alive for fighting the good fight - for KL residents, saved from death and rape, it is great and wonderful idea.

I am pretty sure the whole "magic awakening" thing is true, but we know how dragons came back and what were Others thinking/doing before, were they just sitting, content, on their asses or are their numbers growing rapidly (and just "how"? there are only so many Craster babies).

Craster sons do suggest some sort of relation with human beings, but it might as well be red herring though - maybe these kids just died from cold. Others lurking so close to The Wall picking up babies seem a little weird.

I really hope Martin would pull off something original and unexpected. The whole magic awakening thing was done many times before, it is like a common theme.

I doubt it will be "they are just misunderstood", either, it is kind of overdone by now, and I am pretty sure GRRM wants us to be horrified of them... but Evil Overlord seems silly as well. Dunno, I just want something transcendent, that will blow my mind off, like intrigues in court turned out to be - more complex and deep than I could imagine.

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Guest Other-in-Law

If Cold Hands = Other, than Others are not all hell bent on human destruction.

Coldhands is not an Other.

The basic premise is somewhat baffling. Defense of the Others? Why? They have done nothing wrong that needs defending. And how presumptuous of the wretched hotbloods to presume to having any authority to judge the Others. They should be careful with this sort of overreaching as a precedent, too. Maybe the flies that they so casually swat will try arresting them as war-criminals, if we follow this to it's logical conclusion.

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Are they bad? How could we know? They don't seem very open about their motives. The closest we've come to a conversation with an Other was in the Prologue of AGoT. Granted, it didn't speak the Common Tongue (or didn't want to.) Nevertheless, I'm gonna go with "The Others are bad", for the following reasons:

1. They kill EVERYTHING in sight. We hear tales about ice spider pets, but otherwise they seem hostile to all life, killing animals as well as people. The two Other's we've seen were VERY confrontational: the Royce guy was just ranging, not hunting it, while Sam & company were retreating. Both times the Other was the aggressor.

2. Their habit of killing everyone does not stem from (direct) predation. They kill things and then abandon the corpes instead of eating them. I recall a story about their drinking the blood of a man who escaped a den of giants, or something of the sort. Grumkins maybe. We have not observed them doing this, and surely (unless you are Peter Singer) killing sentient beings for food is worse than eating animals or plant matter. Maybe they drain the life force or something from the wights, using their swords. Big question mark here. But still, at least from the prey's point of view, this merits a violent response.

3. They don't really need wights; and even if they did, slavery IS evil. Slavery and murder combined even more so. They seem to get by fine without a bunch of wight servants -Others are certainly able to take care of themselves!

4. The make no attempt to negotiate. Not for anything. Whether or not they're after something in particular, they don't ask for land, they don't attempt to trade, they don't ask for surrender or offer quarter; and they don't take prisoners. Again, all the Other behavior we've seen has been purely confrontational. I've no idea if they can even form the words needed to talk to a human, but this is not itself an excuse for genocide. Pretty sure.

5. Their attacks are a bit random. Occasional strikes in the Haunted Forest, and a massed attack (mostly wights?) on the Fist. The NW Rangers were after the Wildling army, not Others, but lets suppose for a moment that the Others didn't know that. The Rangers were an inferior force, in a defensive position not especially far from the Wall.

6. Craster. Did they accept his sacrifices? If so, are they raising his sons in a safe, loving environment?

7. Past history. They did their best to wipe out the First Men and the Children. If they were provoked, their response was pretty extreme. If their current behavior is an extention of that war, they are holding one hell of a grudge.

I could go on and on (and usually do), but I'm sure you're sick of reading by now. I do realize the topic is a bit of a joke.

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I just want point out that Royce and his men, and Sam and Co., all belong to a military organization dedicated to fighting the other Others. Therefore, they are justified in attacking them with intent to kill (sans negotiation). That being said, I agree the Others seem pretty darn evil.

6. Craster. Did they accept his sacrifices? If so, are they raising his sons in a safe, loving environment?

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Are they dedicated to killing Others, or just keeping them on the north side of the Wall?

The last x thousand years, weren't they just fighting off Wildling raids? And isn't that threat evaporating now?

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Either way, that definitely sounds like a declaration of war against the Others. Forced imprisonment in Siberia for reasons of racial heritage seems like a fair enough thing to fight against...

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Either way, that definitely sounds like a declaration of war against the Others.

Or they are just saying "Back Off."

Forced imprisonment in Siberia for reasons of racial heritage seems like a fair enough thing to fight against...

Sure, unless (maybe) you're Siberian, from Siberia, live in Siberia, like Siberia, and are spreading Siberian winter conditions (along with murder, mayhem and frostbite) as you go. Was holding off the Huns or the Mongols a bad thing? Was the Great Wall of China evil? Things didn't go too well for the Chinese when invaders did finally get across.

Racial heritage. Hmmph. The Others are trying to turn everybody's eyes blue, and the Night's Watch is racist? Wouldn't it be "speciesism", in any case?

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