Snowmelter Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 No. That is the last thing we need. GRRM is using mystery and lack of information really well with the Others. Actually getting inside the head of one, and seeing everything from there side would completely ruin the atmosphere of terror he's building. Maybe at the end, once the climax has gone, but by then, I'd say most of the info will have been revealed.... to the readers, at least.You're right, but that renders the whole thread moot. Are the Others evil? Well, they could be considered something of a natural disaster. Are earthquakes, floods, tornadoes and hurricanes evil because they kill a lot of people and cause untold amounts of damage and misery? A rational person would say no because they aren't sentient.The Others, however, seem to be. They are also completely alien and therefore unbound by our ideas of morality and ethics. Perhaps they have their own, and especially an agenda of some sort. Without a POV or at least some insight into them, we'll never know.BTW, terrorizing people is considered evil in human moral and ethical codes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weezul Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Why should good & evil apply to the Others any more than the human characters?A Song of Fire and Ice has a fairly transparently metaphysics and theology. You'll never see gods respond to prayers, meaning the gods are not sentient beings, or simply do not exist. There are however exactly three distinct sources of magical power, which are fire, cold, and life. All magical spells, supernatural abilities, special items, and magical beings are clearly aligned into one of these three categories. In particular, Dragons are fire, Others are cold, and Children are life. Others are a destructive force of nature pure and simple. Yes, they're more intelligent than Dragons, maybe even more destructive, but nevertheless they differ little from a moral perspective. As you know, the seasons come in variable durations sometimes lasting for decades. We should assume their duration and severity is determined by the push & pull of these three forces. To me, the question isn't much about good & evil, but the relationship between the seasons and Others & Dragons.Children are the opposite extreme. We imagine they're morally superior to humans because we imagine Tolkein's Elves, but Martin has clearly stated they are not Elves. So while Children are the embodiment of some force for life, they need not take kindly to humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Meh the Others arent that bad..It seems to me that Gregor and the other bad guys of Westeros so far has done more damage than the Others, men like Rorge and Biter are more monstrous than them..I say give the Others a chance before we judge them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark Swordsman Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't think they're evil, but I don't think they can coexist with humans either. They aren't trapped in Siberia; they radiate Siberia conditions. They bring cold and darkness with them. Unless they want to start some ski resorts in Westeros, I have trouble seeing why keeping them around is any different than keeping smallpox around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I think the others have a specific purpose, so whether or not they are evil is relative to one's position. I toy with the idea that they will be needed in some fashion to save people, but I don't think this is right at all, but it would be a cool twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't think they're evil, but I don't think they can coexist with humans either. They aren't trapped in Siberia; they radiate Siberia conditions. They bring cold and darkness with them. Unless they want to start some ski resorts in Westeros, I have trouble seeing why keeping them around is any different than keeping smallpox around.Seriously, where is this radiation definitely proved? A few characters claim that they bring cold and darkness with them but how do they know this? A few scattered legends from 8,000 years ago? :lol: Sounds like a bad excuse for genocide to me!And a 700 foot Wall was built to trap them in Siberia so I'm definitely going for the trapped and imprisoned angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I really like the Others. I'm very interested in a POV character for them. I think they are evil, but I would rather see them as being evil in relative to a position. It would be cool if they do evil things for a greater cause, but I think they are just evil to be evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amun Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I think a massive, 700 foot wall of ice is a bit of an over-reaction for something that's not really that bad. There is a reason the Wall was built, and in my opinion it's not because of cultural misunderstandings. The Others certainly had great fun murdering Waymar Royce in the prologue of AGoT. They are described as laughing as they do it.But who knows at this point since so little has been revealed about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverx2 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 just an outside the box thought,But who says Crastors sons went to the others, Isnt just as equally possible that crastor had been giving his children to the person cold hands reports too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 The Others certainly had great fun murdering Waymar Royce in the prologue of AGoT. They are described as laughing as they do it.Wasn't that after he initiated hostilities? And how on Earth can one murder someone who is heading at you with a sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amun Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Wasn't that after he initiated hostilities? And how on Earth can one murder someone who is heading at you with a sword?I don't recall the scene exactly. You're probably right. As for using "murder," I guess that was just my biases getting the better of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 just an outside the box thought,But who says Crastors sons went to the others, Isnt just as equally possible that crastor had been giving his children to the person cold hands reports too.Cold Hands could be reporting to The Great Other - we really don't know. But, sure. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 But who says Crastors sons went to the others, Isnt just as equally possible that crastor had been giving his children to the person cold hands reports too.I can think of two reasons. First off, I believe that they establish in ACOK that Gilly has seen the Others take a child away. Secondly, when "Craster's sons" are about to return after the mutiny, Craster's wives describe them in terms that sound like the Others ("the white cold's rising out there, crow") and it's assumed that they'll be hostile to the Night's Watch in a way that Coldhands hasn't been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon of the Hudson Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Wasn't that after he initiated hostilities? And how on Earth can one murder someone who is heading at you with a sword?Royce was disarmed, blinded, on his knees, and covering his shard-pierced eyes with his hands. The Other laughed, then commenced, in Will's POV, butchering him with the aid of his companions. EVEN IF Royce were mortally wounded when his sword shattered, I'm pretty sure that the Others' subsequent actions would be murder (under English/American laws anyway anyway). Heck, the combatant Other was probably legally obligated to retreat from Royce before it joined the duel. (leaving aside issues of warfare between humanity and Otherkind) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Royce was disarmed, blinded, on his knees, and covering his shard-pierced eyes with his hands. The Other laughed, then commenced, in Will's POV, butchering him with the aid of his companions. EVEN IF Royce were mortally wounded when his sword shattered, I'm pretty sure that the Others' subsequent actions would be murder (under English/American laws anyway anyway). Heck, the combatant Other was probably legally obligated to retreat from Royce before it joined the duel. (leaving aside issues of warfare between humanity and Otherkind)Did Royce yield? My understanding of medieval battle etiquette is embarrassingly spotty but I was under the impression that it only becomes murder if you kill your opponent after he yields, or perhaps you even have to accept his surrender...either way, I don't remember Royce yielding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I also do not know medieval battle etiquette, but I do remember that Halfhand was going to make Jon kill a yielding Ygritte. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I also do not know medieval battle etiquette, but I do remember that Halfhand was going to make Jon kill a yielding Ygritte.Qhorin never explicitly ordered him to do so, as Ygritte didn't pose them much of a threat. Of course, he did seem pretty indifferent to whether she lived or died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 He may not of ordered, but he told Jon to kill her. I don't think NW are subject to the rules because they are not knights maybe??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 He may not of ordered, but he told Jon to kill her.As I recall (my copy of ACOK is elsewhere), he said something like, "Let Jon Snow do what must be done. It would be easier if we were not watching." He then later claimed that he wasn't ordering Jon to kill her, but rather allowing him to decide what must done with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I don't have access to the exact words, but I wouldn't doubt that I have them wrong. GRRM has a way of using very specific words to give him the ability to do things you don't expect. I remember them leaving him, and perhaps he did this knowing that Jon would let her go and help Jon later. I really think Halfhand was under utilized. He is one of the few good guy characters I actually like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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