In defense of the Others

[Tb0ne]

We don't know the details behind the events of the Long Night. But it does seem likely that then, like now, they were holed up in a small section of the world, with humans everywhere else. Also, they were attacked on sight by any humans. Seems to me that'd turn even the most peaceful race into manic xenophobes. Sure, they probably hate humans. But its not like they don't have a reason. And its too far back to know which side struck first, as it were.

Do we really know enough to say that the Other's need more Lebensraum?

It's clear that they exist beyond the wall, likely confined to the lands of always winter for a great portion of their existence. That being said we do not even know how large that area is. It could be the size of Antarctica or even Greenland for all we know. I don't have any specific quotes to back this up but my impression was that the lands of always winter form a land-bridge connecting Westeros to whatever continent(s) the Shadow covers (which I suspect is where the Others come from).

I don't have access to the exact words, but I wouldn't doubt that I have them wrong. GRRM has a way of using very specific words to give him the ability to do things you don't expect. I remember them leaving him, and perhaps he did this knowing that Jon would let her go and help Jon later. I really think Halfhand was under utilized. He is one of the few good guy characters I actually like.

I completed a reread of Clash of Kings recently and felt it was pretty explicit that Halfhand was testing Jon (or at least he was claiming that it was a test). If Jon had killed Ygritte Halfhand might not have went to such great lengths to convince Jon that it was okay to break his vows in order to survive and serve the greater good.

[Xoanon]

As someone new to the series I think the Others have to be evil for no other reason then you need some external force to come in and take advantage of the civil war that left the country defenseless and open to conquest otherwise there wouldn't have been much point to it.

[Blood]

As someone new to the series I think the Others have to be evil for no other reason then you need some external force to come in and take advantage of the civil war that left the country defenseless and open to conquest otherwise there wouldn't have been much point to it.

They can do that without being evil. Was Rob evil because he raided Lannister lands, taking advantage of Tywin's army being elsewhere? The others are enemies of the Night's Watch certainly (and probably enemies of all humans), but that does not automatically make them evil any less than the Starks are evil for being enemies of the Lannisters.

If we are to believe the Night's King legend to be true then the others can interact peacefully with humans, and even form relationships with them. Of course, the details of what happened are uncertain but it does seem likely there is some truth to the story.

[Mad Monkey]

I don't think the Others have to be evil either. IF they really are bent on conquering any part of Westeros through violence, they really aren't worse than anyone else. The main reason they're disliked is because they're creepy non-humans with supernatural powers over the dead. We don't even know that if these are all Others or if the ones who can make wights are like their analogue to the knights (warrior elites). For all we know, there is Other politics, Other citizens, Other art, Other culture and romance and life! Judging all Others by the lone extremists who send zombies after Watchmen is like judging all humans by Joffrey or Cersei.

[A Redeemed Hound]

I'll go out on a limb and say that they are evil. The people in Westeros are bastards and rotten slime balls at times but none are pure evil. The Others seem as if they are just evil.

[weezul]

Coldhands is clearly described as a wight minus the blue glowing eyes who's friendly to the nightwatch but Sam doesn't recognize. That alone says,

Coldhands is the wight of Benjen Stark. duh!

Benjen's wight was simply freed from the control of the Other that created him when Sam slayed it, hence his eyes nolonger glowing.

To me, the interesting question is : How does Benjen's wight know about Bran's search for the three eyed crow? Benjen might've learned to greendream, warg into weirwoods, whatever, but we've not seen those abilities when he was alive. More likely, he took memories off the Other controlling him, much like the Old Bear's warg crow took part of his consciousness. We can assume that Others posses far sight like every other magic in ASoFaI. We've seen the Wall block Jon's from warging into Ghost, but Others seem more powerful, well the Wall didn't block the Others control over the wights brought through.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Coldhands is clearly described as a wight minus the blue glowing eyes who's friendly to the nightwatch but Sam doesn't recognize. That alone says, Coldhands is the wight of Benjen Stark. duh!

Just so we're clear, are you assuming that (1) only one person who would be friendly to the Night's Watch has died in the haunted forest; or that (2) Sam would recognize all other dead NW sympathizers?

Because if both of those things are false, the "duh!" is unwarranted and you might want to familiarize yourself with the other theories out there.

[weezul]

We've only seen one wight sans glowing eyes, and that wight was friendly, therefore the glowing eyes likely come from being controlled by the Others. After that, we've only seen one Other die, making that the most likely explanation for Coldhands, oh remember that Other road a house.

Yes, there are surely other nightwatch form Bejen's & other groups freed by Sam killing an Other, but it's still more than likely one of Benjen's men. Any other theory doesn't carry much character continuity

In particular, there is almost no chance that Coldhands represents the Great Other, well he's just a wight not some spectral Other like thing.

Btw, it's also extremely unlikely that Caster was dealing with Coldhands

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Yes, there are surely other nightwatch form Bejen's & other groups freed by Sam killing an Other, but it's still more than likely one of Benjen's men. Any other theory doesn't carry much character continuity

Yeah, if only there was another character that GRRM had spent a lot of time setting up, who was also a brother of the Night's Watch. Alas, I cannot think of such a character.

[MountainThatRides]

In this series, human beings have a wide range of moral shades, though rarely are they black and white. In conflicts between these humans, 'evil' is fairly subjective. One could argue that evil and a lack of morals are the same, or that in order for someone to be considered evil, they must know the difference between right and wrong and make a conscious decision. War, in the context of the Seven Kingdoms, is not evil; fomenting it, however, is frowned upon. Similarly, one knight killing another in an honorable fight, within the heat of battle, is perfectly acceptable (though probably uncommon, as captured knights or lords can fetch a pretty penny in ransom), while armed men descending on an undefended village with fire and sword is reprehensible to some.

Within the realm of human struggle, good and evil is relative because conflict inevitably has a rhyme or reason to it: wealth, land, a personal vendetta, etc. The histories are written largely by the victors, who will paint their deeds in a much more favorable light than their enemies. In the War of the Five Kings, atrocities are committed on all sides; men are eager for rapine and plunder regardless of whether the badge on their jerkin is a lion or a direwolf. That kind of widespread chaos and violence is accepted as one of the realities of war (see: chevauchée), and 'good and evil' doesn't really figure into the equation. It's all up to personal opinion; some might see Gregor Clegane as evil, others might see him as a loyal and useful retainer following his lord's orders. Because he happens to enjoy those orders when they're particularly grisly is another discussion entirely. Murder in Westeros (outside of battle) is probably largely caused by banditry, with the clear motivation being theft; those who kill for the simple pleasure of it may be psychopaths, and if someone is insane and unable to control those urges, it's hard to judge them as evil.

The Others, on the other hand, are motivated by some collective desire that we are ignorant of. Logically, the speculation is that they are motivated by the desire to kill or dominate all life. Perhaps that's a conscious choice, or maybe it's in their DNA. While it's conjecture until we know more about the Others (though I doubt that Martin will reveal much until all the dust settles), the idea has precedent in the Long Night and the War for the Dawn. I find it hard to believe that the Others would be driven by the same desires that fuel humans to conquest; they're a supernatural force that exists largely beyond human comprehension. They probably don't share the same kind of moral compass as humans, and initially they probably saw them as animals. Their ancient enemy were the Children, but after the War when the humans helped the Children drive them back and erect the wall, their enmity must have shifted; the Children are gone, after all. If the Others were fighting the Children before the arrival of the First Men, then the destruction of humanity wasn't their initial goal. Maybe there's something else driving them, something connected to the Children, the Weirwoods and the Isle of Faces. For these reasons, I'd hesitate to label the Others as 'evil'; that's the opinion of the humans in the series, but it might not be in their nature.

For my part, I'm curious as to whether the Wall, besides being a physical barrier, has some supernatural property that keeps the Others on one side of it, and whether the Wall would have to be gone (melted, perhaps, by dragonfire) for them to invade the rest of Westeros. Also, is the War of the Dawn in Westeros the specific conflict in which Azor Ahai defeated the Others, or is it possible that they invaded both Westeros and Essos simultaneously?

[weezul]

Coldhands tells Sam & Gilly they must bring Bran back through the gate because the wall has spells that prevent him from crossing it.

There was however some story about a Lord Commander of the Nigh's Watch that was sometimes a wight and worked with the Others, I forget where & the details. So these spells might not prevent going over the wall.

[The faceless others]

We judge the others as evil in our own culture, but what if that murdering is just in the other's nature? Do we call a bear evil cause it shredded you after you alarmed it?

Or maybe, the others are a bunch of war like hippies trying to save the world from global warming, long summer is bad for nature you kno.

The other said to the first men "We come in peace.", after encountering a camp of humans camping and roasting a dragon. Looking at the other, the man misunderstood the others gestures for the other was holding his sword unsheathed. So, for a defense, the human struck with the dragon bone cracking the others skull. Thus the reason for the war between the men and others.

[Blood of my Blood]

My Theory on the Others is this.

Does the cold bring them or do they bring the cold?

In a way both. I believe that they emit cold so it gets cold when they are around. But why are the Others moving south right now?

Seasonal Migration.

The seasons in Westeros have theses wild swings. People talk about the longer the summer the longer the winter. They have had 10 years of Summer, so shits going to get cold. The Others know its coming, and like any migratory species, moves to where the lands are bountiful.

So not evil just fulfilling a regular occurrence for their species.

Nor I am not saying that the Others are primitive. The insertion of two assassins into Castle Black was quite sophisticated, requiring selective targeting and intelligence on the workings of the Castle and the Watch. I am sure that some of the lost Rangers have been questioned by the Others (or their human servants(Crasters son's)). Another sign of sophistication was the "duel" with Raymer Royce. Single combat brings into question of an Others honour code.

[Manakhkubar]

When I first read about the Long Night and the building of the Wall, I thought of the Korean War. Okay, the Others had no Chinese PLA to turn the whole thing around once again, that step was missing somehow (therefore, the "latitude" the Wall is build along is more to the north). Still, the hostility against refugees of the north is similar to that in the border areas of South Korea and the PRC today. And, of course, the demonization of the threat luring in the north.

From the Others perspective, the way that the southerners and the rest of the world locks them away and throws away the key might somehow provoke a generalized hostility on their own. And, of late, these southerners started to create weapons of mass destruction (a.k.a. dragons) and proved they do not shy away from using them. If I were Other, I would feel threatened. Or, at least, I'd spread fear and anger towards the south for all the things that go wrong in my own territory.

Now, it looked like the southerners ran out of dragons, but of course the able Other's intelligence knew that was just a feint. Every reader of the books can clearly come to the conclusion that Dany's dragons are meant to be used against the Others. And I'm sure the Others know that. All they can do is to strike first. I mean, what do we suppose them to do in that situation: Just wait until the genocide against them begins?

[Lady of the Rock]

I'm so glad this thread was started! This topic has been bothering me for a long time.

I'm disinclined to think that the Others are just this supreme evil force within the story.

Everything about ASOIAF is complex, and having this race of pure evil simply hell bent on wreaking as much havoc as possible with no apparent motive that we know of seems too simple.

I think the problem with the Others is that we really are totally ignorant of them.

It seems like the people of Westeros really consider them these mindless zombie things that just want to kill everyone indiscriminately.

But I think it's fairly clear that this can't be the case considering, as it's been pointed out, the Others are really quite sophisticated. They plan, strategize, and fight so very deliberately.

In my opinion, they must have some really clear purpose and plan to carry it out.

Is that purpose "evil"? Possibly.

But then again, we have no idea what it could be.

There doesn't seem to be any real history of the Others except that they attacked and had to be fought back.

But then again, as it's been pointed out, the victors are the ones who write history.

I just want to know why they do what they do.

It also seems like the Others are being set up as the enemies of R'hllor.

They only appear in the dark and cold, they kill seemingly pretty mercilessly, and then there's Craster's sacrifices to them...

R'hllor doesn't seem all that benign either, though really.

There are sacrifices made to him as well. Innocent ones, if Mel gets her way.

So I don't really know that the Others are any worse than what's being pitched against them.

[Mad Monkey]

I've always felt that you can't blame a god for something that a crazy person does on their own time. R'hllor never asked Melisandre to burn a little boy, and -- sure enough -- she failed. Perhaps the Others are visiting their wrath upon the Night's Watch for their collusion for the daughter-raping, son-murdering Craster. If it's true that the Others are made out of Craster's abandoned boys in some way, that might even be part of their motive; to destroy this bizarre, Lovecraftian realm of horror where men who violate their own children are not only tolerated but honored as partners to the defenders of the realm.

[RSasoiaf]

One point i allways think is:

There has been humans, giants and other creatures living north of the war. And apparently for centuries now. So the question becomes, were they interacting with the Others? Were the Others simply not there? Where were they? And what made them get back again?

I suppose one of the really interesting questions would be: what did the wildlings to start the war? Because, they were living there, they were safe, and suddenly, after Mance Ryder started digging some hills in search of some magical artifact.....BANG...they get a big: GET THE HELL OFF

The interactions bettween Others and the Night´s Watch seem to have been nearly or totally non existant for the past centuries. There are still legends about them but very few seem to believe which means that they are not showing up or atacking that much for the past generations.

It seems to me maybe Mance did something to trigger their anger or to awaken them. Could it be? Or like someone else said, it´s just like a migratory pattern and they know a long winter is comming and want to take the chance to expand further south. Could also be.

Like people have said, the simple notion that one of them dueled Royce instead of all of them quickly jumping on him....that makes me think twice. They clearly are more complex. And they let Gared go away, which shows that they actually want people to understand they are back in the game and agressive. Or at least that group wanted so. That Ned found out nothing about them they could not foresee. Maybe they were trying to lure the NW´s into an ambush as they ended up doing....which would be quite smart if they plan to invade south.

There´s just so many questions about the Others!!!

And puzzling fact that they know about Craster being there and dont kill him or his wifes......why the hell not? If they had a real big problem with humans, what could Craster tell them to have their simpaty? Imagine:

Ahhh i will give you all my sons

hmmm...that could be interesting but you and all those wives actually make more potencial slaves and older ones at the moment....so....sorry!

But but...my sons! they will be boys, you can use them

hmmm...once again, sorry! there are giants out there that we can make our slaves if we want to, there are these knights riding out there in small groups....if we just want more slaves we can take them easily....sorry again.

Also...if Craster can get some agreement with the Others...that just means there´s some chance to comunicate with them. If a human can comunicate and from a peace treaty with them, then it´s possible! They are open to it! We just have to find out what they want and discuss that with them.

[Zestyfudge]

Humans may be comaparably as evil in actions as the Others. But I don't see anyone from the seven kingdoms making wights out of little girls and sending them to kill everyone they see... Just saying...

[Queen in the North]

But I don't see anyone from the seven kingdoms making wights out of little girls and sending them to kill everyone they see... Just saying...

I assume you are referring to the wight girl in the show prologue, because IIRC there haven't been any kid wights in the books.

And there are people from the Seven Kingdoms (well, technically from Assai) who BOOK SPOILERS

try to burn little boys.

[Zestyfudge]

I assume you are referring to the wight girl in the show prologue, because IIRC there haven't been any kid wights in the books.

And there are people from the Seven Kingdoms (well, technically from Assai) who BOOK SPOILERS

try to burn little boys.

Actually referring to the one that attacked Snow, and was pushed into the fire by his Dire wolf in the book...

And the little girl in the show too, only way the Others can do anything south of the wall if that's right.

I'm sure they'd have no prob's making wights out of anything they find...