Ned Naive? Littlefinger Trustworthy?

[Padraig]

Even if LF hadn't betrayed Ned, there's a most excellent chance that Janos would have accepted LF's gold and then gone straight to Cersei.

Hah. Now you just don't understand LF either. :P

[Jack Sparrow]

I don't really recall: Was LF portrayed as trustworthy before he betrays Ned? It seems important that his betrayal should come as a big surprise as possible, and hence making Ned look a little less dumb.

I think LF mostly came off as trustworthy up until his betrayal. He seemed very helpful to both Cat and Ned, and Cat seemed to implicity trust him. The only suspicious thing was whether or not LF was telling the truth about the mercenary's dagger that he claimed he'd lost to Tyrion in a wager (suspicious to the reader/viewer, I mean; Cat was still unsure after hearing Tyrion's side of things, though she seemed to mostly think he was a liar, and Eddard never got to hear Tyrion's side of the story, and he hated the Lannisters anyway).

[Smoldering Hound]

The first time around, I thought Ned was just being lawful stupid as well. After a reread or three, though, it's clear that is wasn't just honor that was driving him, it was his aversion to killing kids. He's against it when Robert wants to kill the Targs, he was there when Robert accepted the Lannister's "Gift" of the dead baby and girl. He's already resigned as Hand over the assassination issue when Robert pushed it, and he knows Robert would have no compunction killing all three of the twincest kids once told. He's sure of his strength (that's the trusting LF part), so of course he gives Cercei the chance to save the kids, for the kids sake.

[daimonion]

Yes. If they want to make Ned look less silly, it would help to add a scene maybe of him watching Myrcella and Tommen play or something and him clearly thinking of whats at stake if he does not give Cersei a chance to flee.

[The Pita]

That would be a great idea, as far as added scenes go. Have Ned watching Myrcella and Tommen play, and then tell one of his guards to deliver Cersei the message to meet him in the godswood.

[bearisland]

Eek! I started a new thread by accident! Sorry for having gone off-topic; I really was trying to work within the topic of how the fiftyish Ned we saw in the trailer was going to affect interpretations of the character.

To clarify my original point, I don't think Ned was wrong to give Cersei a chance to escape with her children. I think it was admirable. The bit that I think was naive was that he tipped his hand to her and then, essentially, turned his back on her. If his goal was to help the children escape with their lives, then it would have been advisable to have had transport for them ready *before* threatening the woman who - as he knows - deals with threats by arranging to have innocent people killed. Alexei refers to "bundling them into a boat" which would have been a great idea. Or at the very least, waited until Robert was back, then telling her "I'm on my way to tell him right now, so you'd best get hopping if you want to escape with your head." Giving her time to counter-attack was not the sensible or honourable course of action.

[Arbor Gold]

Giving her time to counter-attack was not the sensible or honourable course of action.

Definitely not sensible. There's a quick scene where Ned thinks to himself (about Cersei) something along the lines of "why has she not left the city yet? I've given her plenty of time." *facepalm*

[Padraig]

There's a quick scene where Ned thinks to himself (about Cersei) something along the lines of "why has she not left the city yet? I've given her plenty of time." *facepalm*

Yes, Ned certainly didn't want to have to arrest Cersei's kids. That road leads nowhere good.

[Crow's Eye]

If LF had brought him the City Guard, how would Ned have failed? It really is the principle reason why he lost. All the others were mistakes but red herrings in the end.

Not sure I agree there. I believe Ned lost because he turned down Renly's help. Ned was naive enough to think that a piece of paper, rather than swords and quick action, would protect his status as Regent. I also think this decision was heavily influenced by the shock and pain of Robert's inevitable death. By the time he realizes his mistake, he has to turn to LF, who naturally betrays him.

Telling Cersei that he knew her secret was also not nearly as great a mistake as turning down Renly. Ned's aversion to killing children made it virtually impossible for him to do otherwise - he did not want to be standing beside Robert when someone (Renly & Loras?) laid the bodies of Joff, Myrcella and Tommen at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped in Baratheon gold. In addition, even had Ned not told Cersei about his knowledge, does anyone think the Lannisters would accept Ned as Regent?

Regardless, as to the OP's initial point, I do not think that Ned's age had anything to do with him being naive about the nature of power. He lived his life so far apart from the "nest of vipers" that was King's Landing. He ruled the North with honor, justice and a strong hand, and all (or at least most) of his vassal lords were also friends. He simply expected that approach would also work in King's Landing (i.e., that Robert's proclamation naming him Regent would be respected without question, because it's what his vassal lords in the north would likely do). By the end of his time as Hand he's starting to catch on to how the game is played (i.e., asking LF to buy the goldcloaks), but by that time it was far too late. Contrast this to Stannis and Renly, who were both younger than Ned but knew when it was time to flee King's Landing.

[Alexia]

I would like to respectfully disagree with the notion that Ned's vassal lords would respect Lord Stark's words without question.

As Exhibit A, I offer Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort.

As Exhibit B, I offer Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold.

[Crow's Eye]

I would like to respectfully disagree with the notion that Ned's vassal lords would respect Lord Stark's words without question.

As Exhibit A, I offer Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort.

As Exhibit B, I offer Rickard Karstark, Lord of Karhold.

True, but both of those lords betrayed Robb, not Ned. We have no indication that Ned had to actively suppress treasons or rebellions from these two, nor any indication that either failed to respect Ned's status as their liege after the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark.

But, point taken. :)

[Padraig]

Not sure I agree there. I believe Ned lost because he turned down Renly's help. Ned was naive enough to think that a piece of paper, rather than swords and quick action, would protect his status as Regent. I also think this decision was heavily influenced by the shock and pain of Robert's inevitable death. By the time he realizes his mistake, he has to turn to LF, who naturally betrays him.

In terms of the forces at KL when Robert dies:

1) Ned's men (in the tens and significantly lowered by sending men after Gregor)

2) Renly + Loras men (in the tens)

3) Lannister men

4) City Guard (a couple of thousand)

The City Guard was by far the largest quantity wise. Ned would have to control the City Guard even if he had Renly's support. He even comments on it to LF.

As for Ned and the North. Ned's control of the North was unquestioned. Not that Roose loved him but he is all about self-interest and there would be no plus-side in questioning Ned's rule. A war against the Lannisters may have opened up some possibilities, even if Ned was still alive. But Bolton would only have acted openly if Ned was as vulnerable as Robb and it would take a lot for Ned ever to end up as vulnerable as Robb (e.g. he couldn't be marrying Westerlings for one).

[Sekhmet]

As for Ned and the North. Ned's control of the North was unquestioned. Not that Roose loved him but he is all about self-interest and there would be no plus-side in questioning Ned's rule. A war against the Lannisters may have opened up some possibilities, even if Ned was still alive. But Bolton would only have acted openly if Ned was as vulnerable as Robb and it would take a lot for Ned ever to end up as vulnerable as Robb (e.g. he couldn't be marrying Westerlings for one).

I agree with you totally! I made the point way back that Ned became a fish out of water, out of his environment. He knew how to rule the north. He was awash in the snake pit of KL. He was improvising as quickly as he could, but with Robert's death, he was basically without an ally.