The First Law Series (Spoilers included!)

[Wik]

Hey all! There are going to be spoilers in this thread, just a heads up, but I wanted to discuss Joe's Series, so if you haven't finished the books yet and don't want to get mad, please don't continue. I've been absent for some time but just started jumping back into my reading mood thanks to more relaxing work schedule. I had started "The Blade Itself" a while back (I had got about 3/4 through and finally set it down), after it had been highly recommended by many here on these forums. To be 100% honest I wasn't really getting into the book. I started it with an open mind but it just wasn't "working" for me. Anyhow, I decided to forge through and finish the book (and series). Picking it up was apparently a good idea on my part as I found myself drawn in much more than I had originally been. I tore through the rest of the series in about a week and now I'm left with the aftermath that most of us have when a series is over and you now have an empty hole and nothing to fill the void lol!

Anyhow, I guess I am just here to chat about the series and "the end" specifically. I always enjoy a cliffhanger but I also like to have closure. I absolutely warmed to and loved this series after all. Joe's dialogue with his characters is priceless.

Magic is never really explained in depth (as I recall anyhow) in the series though, so with regards to Bayaz being OLD and a mage, does him being the First of the Magi somehow make him immortal? During the long journey they go on the reader gets the feeling Bayaz is old, and age is catching up with him quickly. Then, by the end of the book (after the Seed fight) he has pep in his step and looks noticeably younger, from Logen's point of view, if I recall correctly.

Logen's end fight seems, to me anyhow, that it was a quick way to make a melancholy ending. Throughout the book we see him take on all challenges. I mean, the build up to the duel with The Feared was far greater and frankly, I felt like it was more of an impossible fight for Logen than Black Dow and two Carls. So he just commits suicide? Just doesn't seem to be in his character make-up. He lost his blade several times while fighting The Feared, but didn't just give up. Why suddenly would he in that situation? I guess these are most likely, un-answerable questions, but I thought they might make for some good discussion. I liked that everything didn't end all peaches and cream good. But it seemed like some things were a disappointment, beyond the clique of "Oh my favorite character died and i'm sad now".

Is Ferro insane?

Bayaz could use the seed to defeat his "evil brother" (if that is what you want to call it) but doesn't so technically his "victory" isn't really at all complete. As soon as he gains the upper hand, he goes back to hiding, leaving the Union in others' hands. Seems like that is just inviting future turmoil.

Anyhow, i'm looking for opinions/feedback both good and bad for the series, opinions on some of the situations I listed and maybe others that you enjoyed/disliked etc etc. Look forward to hearing from all of you!

[mjgambino]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Logen is dead at the end. It seems like the ONLY thing Logen is good at is not dying, no matter what the circumstances are.

The First Law Trilogy is easily my favorite fantasy series (although the Ketty Jay books are closing in).It's the first series where I've ever been compelled to convince my non-fantasy reading friends to give it a shot, and for the most part, they've all loved it.

[jurble]

Magic is never really explained in depth (as I recall anyhow) in the series though, so with regards to Bayaz being OLD and a mage, does him being the First of the Magi somehow make him immortal? During the long journey they go on the reader gets the feeling Bayaz is old, and age is catching up with him quickly. Then, by the end of the book (after the Seed fight) he has pep in his step and looks noticeably younger, from Logen's point of view, if I recall correctly.

Neither him, nor the other Magi seem to be too affected by the fact that they're millenia old.

Logen's end fight seems, to me anyhow, that it was a quick way to make a melancholy ending. Throughout the book we see him take on all challenges. I mean, the build up to the duel with The Feared was far greater and frankly, I felt like it was more of an impossible fight for Logen than Black Dow and two Carls. So he just commits suicide? Just doesn't seem to be in his character make-up. He lost his blade several times while fighting The Feared, but didn't just give up. Why suddenly would he in that situation? I guess these are most likely, un-answerable questions, but I thought they might make for some good discussion. I liked that everything didn't end all peaches and cream good. But it seemed like some things were a disappointment, beyond the clique of "Oh my favorite character died and i'm sad now".

The fight with the Feared was different, he was all Bloody Nine, and the sorceress powering The Feared died. Logen, even in berserker mode, can't take on a bunch of warriors like that, especially when he's recovering from fighting The Feared. He's only a normal-ish man. Moreover, he survived a giant fall before, so who knows.

Is Ferro insane?

She's annoying.

Bayaz could use the seed to defeat his "evil brother" (if that is what you want to call it) but doesn't so technically his "victory" isn't really at all complete. As soon as he gains the upper hand, he goes back to hiding, leaving the Union in others' hands. Seems like that is just inviting future turmoil.

Bayaz wouldn't survive walking into Gurkhul alone, even with the seed. He used the seed to power his nuclear-atomic-vortex gun. He needed major prep time. And a fight against Khalul wouldn't be as easy as taking out a bunch of Eaters. The Union isn't in others' hand, it's in his hands. He controls the banks, he controls the Union. Just like Khalul. Khalul doesn't run Gurkhul, he controls the religion. Uthman-ul-Dosht controls the country. But Khalul can force Uthman to do what he wants when he wants it, just like Bayaz can force the Union to do stuff when he wants it. Moreover, Bayaz and Khalul both clearly don't want to have a 1 v 1 duel because the result would be up in the air, and neither wants to take the chance. Moreover, if you read Best Served Cold

The war between the two never ends.

[Wik]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think Logen is dead at the end. It seems like the ONLY thing Logen is good at is not dying, no matter what the circumstances are.

Ya, that is true, I read that last chapter 3 times now and came to the conclusion that Logen could certainly still be alive. When I was first reading it however it was my absolute opinion that he died. So I guess there is a ray of sunshine still out there for that particular character haha

As I was writing this I had an epiphany that the reader is possibly set-up to believe he died at the end of the series, just as Dow, Dogman, Grim and the rest thought he had died early in the first book. Him surviving is, as you said, just another testament to Logen's survivability. That seems reasonable, corect?

The First Law Trilogy is easily my favorite fantasy series (although the Ketty Jay books are closing in).It's the first series where I've ever been compelled to convince my non-fantasy reading friends to give it a shot, and for the most part, they've all loved it.

I have encouraged ASOIAF, Prince of Nothing and First Law to my friends and have had a very high success rate. Even with non fantasy/sci-fi types. I won't go as far as to say this has been my favorite series, but the 3 aforementioned series are, in my opinion, top notch series, regardless of genre.

[Wik]

Neither him, nor the other Magi seem to be too affected by the fact that they're millenia old.

Ya, I wish this was explained or at least suggested in someway, regardless of if it is by some result of using magic or perhaps they are just an immortal human in the sense that they can be killed but won't die of age.

The fight with the Feared was different, he was all Bloody Nine, and the sorceress powering The Feared died. Logen, even in berserker mode, can't take on a bunch of warriors like that, especially when he's recovering from fighting The Feared. He's only a normal-ish man. Moreover, he survived a giant fall before, so who knows.

He was Bloody-Nine for sure, most of the fight, but could have easily done so against Dow and the rest as well. In several fights (at least I did anyhow) the reader gets the feeling that he can fight several men in a swirling melee, or shanka, etc etc and come out alive. Granted, he was recovering from his duel with the Feared at the end, I just found it was perhaps too short and a little off from what I expected from his character. Especially since he had already beaten Dow (obviously in more even terms that this particular case but I think everyone sees what I am suggesting). Again, just my humble opinion on things.

She's annoying.

I enjoy her fight scenes and things like that. But when she started getting soft spots and thinking about stuff she did start to get annoying. Overall I didn't dislike her but she wasn't my favorite. But after the fight with the Seed, she hears all the voices and such, so I didn't know if that was because of her exposure to the Seed, just as West and others suffered side effects as well.

Bayaz wouldn't survive walking into Gurkhul alone, even with the seed. He used the seed to power his nuclear-atomic-vortex gun. He needed major prep time. And a fight against Khalul wouldn't be as easy as taking out a bunch of Eaters. The Union isn't in others' hand, it's in his hands. He controls the banks, he controls the Union. Just like Khalul. Khalul doesn't run Gurkhul, he controls the religion. Uthman-ul-Dosht controls the country. But Khalul can force Uthman to do what he wants when he wants it, just like Bayaz can force the Union to do stuff when he wants it. Moreover, Bayaz and Khalul both clearly don't want to have a 1 v 1 duel because the result would be up in the air, and neither wants to take the chance. Moreover, if you read Best Served Cold

The war between the two never ends.

Right. I'm not suggesting that he could just walk in alone, but if we decide that Khalul and him are the two most powerful men in the world, but Bayaz has the Seed, the scales seem to tip in favor of Bayaz. If the Seed can make cities, lands, regions completely desolate and Bayaz was feeling saucy enough, he could just wipe Gurkhul (and hopefully, possibly) Khalul right off the face of the earth. That would leave no one to challenge Bayaz in his power and leave him to rule the entire world as it's only architect and ruler.

When I mentioned him putting the Union in other's hands I conveyed my point vaguely and poorly, my apologies. We know he runs the show but he has his hands off, no where to be seen approach to it and has others do his bidding. Instead of just dueling Khalul, he could have instead taken the Union's army, invaded Gurkhul and used the Seed on the country while screened/supported by the Union's army. Khalul would have no choice but to try and fight Bayaz to prevent that, but with Bayaz in possession of the Seed, Khalul wouldn't stand a chance (would he?!).

[jurble]

Well maybe Khalul would break the First Law, and conjure something to negate the Seed. Who knows. Bayaz has his reasons.

Anyway, I always forget that Glokta isn't that old - Is mother still alive?

[Prince Who Was Promised]

Ya, I wish this was explained or at least suggested in someway, regardless of if it is by some result of using magic or perhaps they are just an immortal human in the sense that they can be killed but won't die of age.

All Magic comes from the Other Side, the world of demons. Wizards such as Bayaz, Khalul, and Yulwei use their Art by drawing upon the powers of that world. The reason Bayaz seems so old and somewhat frail seems due to a slight overuse of the Art. As seen in "Before They Are Hanged", when Bayaz uses too much of the Art, he's out for days. Magic has been growing weaker in the world of "First Law", because the Other Side and the Human World have drifted so far apart.

The reason Bayaz regains some age, and maybe some power, is due to the use of the Seed. The Seed is "the Other Side made flesh, the very stuff of magic". Using the Seed and regular magic seem to have differences in power, as the Seed is pure magic from the Other Side, a relic of the demons leftover from their banishment. So when Bayaz taps directly into the source of magic, rather than using his will or whatever it is he usually uses, it restores his power.

So I think it's reasonable to say the the Wizards' long life is due to them tapping into the world-changing, laws-of-physics altering powers of the World Below for so long.

[kungtotte]

Mages are apparently granted supernaturally long lifespans, but we see that they can be killed or hurt by traditional means. Bayaz seeming to be invigorated is probably because of him possessing the Seed, he knows that he now has a weapon that can destroy anything Khalul might send at him and he knows that he just obliterated a large part of Khalul's power.

The common thread of Logen surviving the worst of his fights is that he turns into the Bloody Nine, something which he cannot control. It's just a berserker type of battle-lust that comes over him when he's sufficiently injured and/or in trouble. In basically all the fights where he doesn't turn into the Bloody Nine, he relies on superior tactics, stealth and surprise to defeat his enemies. He never chooses to become the Bloody Nine. At the end of The Blade Itself he and Ferro run for a long time through the city, being mercilessly beaten by the Practicals before the Bloody Nine finally chooses to reveal himself. And Logen quite obviously does not like the Bloody Nine revealing himself, the only time he welcomes it is during the fight with the Feared as he knows that's his only way of winning.

The Bloody Nine never makes an appearance during his fight with Black Dow, so Logen has to make it through that fight on his own. The last time he won against Black Down he did turn into the Bloody Nine, which may have been the edge he required to win. His (former) companions sure were no pushovers, except maybe the Weakest, and with Black Dow having two Carls to back him up it would have been difficult for Logen to tip the scales without the Bloody Nine.

Yes, Ferro is insane. She is insane in the same way Bayaz is insane. They are both driven completely by their lust for vengeance to the detriment of a lot of other things in their life. When presented with a choice of happily ever after, or as happy as Joe would ever let things be in this world of his, and small-time vengeance against the Gurkish she chooses her futile vengeance. She knows that she won't ever get to the people that really matter down there (Uthman ul-Dosht and Khalul), she knows that she'll just be running around killing mooks for the rest of her life, but she can't not do it because of her insanity.

As others have mentioned, the Seed is not a weapon you can charge into battle with. It's almost entirely a defensive weapon and so Bayaz can be content sitting in his library because he knows Khalul can never get to him. Any time Khalul tried to send an army or his Eaters to invade, Bayaz could disintegrate them en masse without so much as breaking a sweat. Presumably he is content in keeping the power-balance the way it is right now, but I could easily see him spending his time fashioning a plan for the ultimate destruction of Khalul.

Me? I think one of two things happened with Logen. Either he died like people are supposed to and went back to the mud, or he survived the fall and is now spending his time at Bayaz' library.

ETA

I think the demons of the Other Side may have an active interest in keeping any Mages alive. Anyone who has had contact with the Other Side is a potential conduit through which the demons might burrow through from the Other Side and into the real world. Maybe it takes them two thousand years of waiting for the Mage's control to slip, but once it does the Tellers of Secrets can worm their way through and start working their mojo.

[delete this account pls]

If Logen is alive (and to be honest, I think the question is kind of irrelevant) he'll be planning, or carrying out, his revenge on Black Dow. That's the whole point of his story - he can't break free from the cycle of violence. Nor does he want to, by the end of the third book.

So, alive or dead, I sort of hope we don't see Logen again. His story is over. it's possible Joe could take the character in a new direction, but I'd rather see some new characters, or the return of minor characters who are given more prominent roles. And that pretty much sounds like what we'll get with The Heroes.

[wolverine]

The Bloody Nine never makes an appearance during his fight with Black Dow, so Logen has to make it through that fight on his own. The last time he won against Black Down he did turn into the Bloody Nine, which may have been the edge he required to win. His (former) companions sure were no pushovers, except maybe the Weakest, and with Black Dow having two Carls to back him up it would have been difficult for Logen to tip the scales without the Bloody Nine.

Also the Bloody Nine seems to be a sort of survival mechanism for when Logen is trapped in a corner with no way out. I don't really remember him showing up when Logen had an escape rout or way out of a situation (maybe the battle where he killed the child). Maybe him thinking he can jump out a window into a river kept the Bloody Nine in his subconscious because he had not reached a critical endangerment level. And maybe the Bloody Nine showed up more in the past. Also, despite Black Dow being a viscious ass, he was Logen's companion for a long time and I really don't think he looked forward to killing him.

I totally think Logen did not die jumping out the window. Even when Logen is not the Bloody Nine he is a pretty damn formiddable warrior.

By the Tul Duru's death was one of my saddest in any series.

[Wik]

By the Tul Duru's death was one of my saddest in any series.

I was very sad to see this happen, but I still can't rank it at the top of the "Oh shit!" list like Rob Stark's death in ASOIAF. It seemed obvious, in my own mind anyhow, that by the third book, Joe was trying to show that Logen, while a cool character isn't the type that most people would want to rally around. He has some serious flaws, not the least of which is killing his own friends while in berserk mode! I think by the end of the book Dogman seemed more like the equilibrium, with guys like Black Dow and Logen and Bethod farther down the scale. At least that was my feeling. Honestly, I felt the worst death in the series was Threetrees. I was sad to see him go, although how he died at least gave him some dignity, in that he went out fighting.

@kungtotte When I was suggesting Ferro's insanity, I was suggesting that she literally went insane with the voices in her head, due to the exposure and or use of the Seed. I think everyone knows her murderous lust for vengeance is over the top and the sole thing that drives her, but in book 3 after Bayaz used the Seed, she could hear the demons on the Other Side whispering, or so she thought she did. Something which was definitely NOT normal in her character prior to the fight.

@Jurble, yes, I think I have made that mistake a few times with Glotka as well. He is probably, what, around 26 ish? If he was a young officer in the King's Own when he fought the Gurkish, Put him at about 20 (just an arbitrary number, which could be slightly higher or lower according to Joe) and add two years in the prisons, which puts him at 22 and lets say (as I don't recall if it is ever mentioned) that that war was four years previous, he would be 26. Seems feasible. Also seems feasible that he could be as young as maybe 22, or as old as about 32. Regardless, definitely not some old doddering cripple. That being said, I think it is more than plausible that his mother is still alive.

[Samalander]

1) Yes, Ferro is insane... She knows that she won't ever get to the people that really matter down there (Uthman ul-Dosht and Khalul), she knows that she'll just be running around killing mooks for the rest of her life, but she can't not do it because of her insanity.

2) As others have mentioned, the Seed is not a weapon you can charge into battle with. It's almost entirely a defensive weapon and so Bayaz can be content sitting in his library because he knows Khalul can never get to him.

1) If one reads "Best Served Cold" closely, one definately sees her working her way up through the ranks... ;)

2) How do we know this can't be used in an offensive fashion?

If Logen is alive (and to be honest, I think the question is kind of irrelevant) he'll be planning, or carrying out, his revenge on Black Dow. That's the whole point of his story - he can't break free from the cycle of violence. Nor does he want to, by the end of the third book.

I absolutely did not get that. If Logen survived his fall, I totally see him going someplace to live quietly alone, just him and the spirits. Don't forget that chapter is name "The Beginning".

That being said, I think it is more than plausible that his mother is still alive.

I think it would be fascinating to see them interact. She never made an appearance up to now, but from Glokta's POV she seems a bit on the controlling side.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Right. I'm not suggesting that he could just walk in alone, but if we decide that Khalul and him are the two most powerful men in the world, but Bayaz has the Seed, the scales seem to tip in favor of Bayaz. If the Seed can make cities, lands, regions completely desolate and Bayaz was feeling saucy enough, he could just wipe Gurkhul (and hopefully, possibly) Khalul right off the face of the earth. That would leave no one to challenge Bayaz in his power and leave him to rule the entire world as it's only architect and ruler.

I get the distinct impression that Khalul is somewhat more powerful than Bayaz. After all, we see even junior Eaters with incredible power, and Bayaz and Yulwei suspect that Khalul's first apprentice may surpass them in power. I think that Bayaz knows that the Seed is a massive advantage for him, but he doesn't know enough about Khalul to risk open combat.

Anyway, I always forget that Glokta isn't that old - Is mother still alive?

Well, he mentions at one point that he doesn't want to return home to his family estate and his mother (don't forget, he's a nobleman). His mother was also alive and taking care of him directly after his return from Gurkhul, which we know from the story where she turns West away from coming to see him.

But, is she alive as of TFL? Dunno. Absolutely plausible, as he's only in his early 30s or so and his mother was alive within a relatively few years of the story.

[kuenjato]

I read this trilogy (and BSC) a couple months back. What impressed me, more than anything else, was how markedly Joe grew as a writer over the course of the four books. Although The Blade Itself certainly possessed a 'voice' from the beginning, I found much of the prose verging on amatuerish. I kept reading because the story itself intrigued & I knew it was his first book and all, and by about 1/3rd to 1/2 through BTaH, the prose style and overall technique became noticably better--a lot better. BSC, for me, was probably the best-written of the bunch, though overly-long and a bit repetitious with the dimestore nihilishm. Still, really looking forward to The Heroes and the next trilogy...

[Prince Who Was Promised]

I personally think that if Ferro applied herself to learn magic, she would be more powerful than Bayaz or Khalul. She killed Mamun with her finger, if I remember correctly. And she might be the only one in the Circle of the World that can handle the Seed, due to her demon heritage.

[Imagica]

yes, I think I have made that mistake a few times with Glotka as well. He is probably, what, around 26 ish? If he was a young officer in the King's Own when he fought the Gurkish, Put him at about 20 (just an arbitrary number, which could be slightly higher or lower according to Joe) and add two years in the prisons, which puts him at 22 and lets say (as I don't recall if it is ever mentioned) that that war was four years previous, he would be 26. Seems feasible. Also seems feasible that he could be as young as maybe 22, or as old as about 32. Regardless, definitely not some old doddering cripple. That being said, I think it is more than plausible that his mother is still alive.

IIRC, he mentions he's 35.

On a side note, I just can't help but chuckle every time the character's name is misspelled as "Glotka". In Russian, this literally means "throat". Took me a while to get used to it in the book, even with the letters mixed up a bit...

and by about 1/3rd to 1/2 through BTaH, the prose style and overall technique became noticably better--a lot better. BSC, for me, was probably the best-written of the bunch, though overly-long and a bit repetitious with the dimestore nihilishm.

Yeah, he's definitely getting better. I think even nihilism wasn't as overindulged in as I grew to expect after the ending of TFL.

[jurble]

I personally think that if Ferro applied herself to learn magic, she would be more powerful than Bayaz or Khalul. She killed Mamun with her finger, if I remember correctly. And she might be the only one in the Circle of the World that can handle the Seed, due to her demon heritage.

Dunno, she doesn't seem to have much of an intellect. Moreover, she's like 1/1000th demon. Juvens and the Maker were both 1/2, and Bayaz managed to definitely kill latter and probably kill the former.

[Wik]

I get the distinct impression that Khalul is somewhat more powerful than Bayaz. After all, we see even junior Eaters with incredible power, and Bayaz and Yulwei suspect that Khalul's first apprentice may surpass them in power. I think that Bayaz knows that the Seed is a massive advantage for him, but he doesn't know enough about Khalul to risk open combat.

As far as I recall, didn't Yulwei and Bayaz have little, to no issue with the Eaters, with the exception of when there were tons of them together and with Khalul's apprentice Mamun or wtf ever his name was lol. At the end of the series we learn that Bayaz has been researching and learning a "new" or improved form of the Art that Khalul and others have no idea about. Yulwei dispatched two Eaters with barely a thought while helping Ferro.

I do also disagree about the idea that the Seed is purely a defensive weapon. If anything it seems to have been used offensively when the Old Empire had it used against them. Bayaz admits he does not know how to fully use the Seed and it's power but he has shown at least one trick with it's power.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

Dunno, she doesn't seem to have much of an intellect.

Oh I don't doubt she's never thought of being like the Magi. She seems to have a one track mind, really. But if she could, she'd do well, I think.

Moreover, she's like 1/1000th demon. Juvens and the Maker were both 1/2, and Bayaz managed to definitely kill latter and probably kill the former.

True, true. But Bayaz even said that his Art is but a shadow of what it once was. The only reason Khalul and his Hundred Words seem so powerful seems to be because of their consumption of human flesh. So judging by current power levels, I think Ferro might be a good match if she ever learned magic, but I doubt that would happen.

[jurble]

So, I just started wondering, if Tolomei could resurrect, couldn't Kanedias, Juvens, Glustrod, and that other brother resurrect as well? Tolomei made a deal with the devils, were her father and uncle just more resilient in death to their lies, or were they more dead?