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The First Law Series (Spoilers included!)


Wik

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The one thing I didn't like about the series was how it ended, as in not quite complete. And Bayaz turned out to be a complete a**hole. All he did was for his own personal reasons. I really don't believe that he actually cares about the Union or humanity in general. He has his personal vendetta with the other mage (forgot his name) and tries to use everyone as pawns.

Think of Bayaz as an anti-Gandalf. He's the all-powerful, immortal wizard who is also manipulative and obsessed with grudges and past insults. He is completely devoid of empathy and a conscience. Just look at what he did to Tolomei, and he supposedly loved her.

It doesn't take anything away from the completeness of the series though. The ending is very consistent with what we see throughout the books. The First Law is not a typical "everyone lived happily ever after" fantasy series. It is, in many ways, a satire of traditional fantasy, and the events that occur in the culmination of the series should be seen in this light.

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With so many people hoping/asking/begging for Bayaz's downfall, I have to question WHY? Yes, he is an arrogant prick. Yes, he uses the Union and it's people like pawns in a bigger game that they aren't even aware of. I get all of that. But if Bayaz gets owned, then the entire world is in the hands of Khalul, who as we know and understand, isn't any better, perhaps even worse. At minimum he is the equal evil to Bayaz and short of the humans somehow defeating these Magi, they will always be used and manipulated by them.

If the magic is draining out of the world, perhaps it is plausible but it would require the Union, the North, Gurkhul, etc etc etc all teaming up and all fighting these guys at once. If they kill on and don't go for the other, they will just be slaves of a new master and in the same position they are now.

Because he's a dooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Khalul is a scrub too. He should get his come-uppance too, but we don't see Khalul, and I bet if Joe did write some scenes with Khalul, he'd at least come off as sympathetic - a man who went too far in trying to do the right thing (bringing Bayaz to justice for murdering Juvens). But Bayaz has no redeeming personal qualities. Khalul, perhaps, has some redeeming personal qualities, though his actions are probably worse than Bayaz'. They're both guys who should die really, really painfully.

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Because he's a dooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Khalul is a scrub too. He should get his come-uppance too, but we don't see Khalul, and I bet if Joe did write some scenes with Khalul, he'd at least come off as sympathetic - a man who went too far in trying to do the right thing (bringing Bayaz to justice for murdering Juvens). But Bayaz has no redeeming personal qualities. Khalul, perhaps, has some redeeming personal qualities, though his actions are probably worse than Bayaz'. They're both guys who should die really, really painfully.

lol I tend to agree, but again, killing one just places you under the foot of the other. A well organized, timed, planned attack on the Magi and willingness to totally sacrifice a large portion of the worlds population in defeating them, will be the only way to do so. Regardless of which Magi and where they are from or currently at, if people are hoping the "puppeteer" gets his, then they have to kill them all because they are all the same (or at least have similiar powers that would allow the next Magi to do what the previous one(s) had).

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so riffing of this, I was quite interested in the portrayal of Juvens in the books. On the one hand, the Union looks like a poor man's copy of the empire Juvens established in the South which his brother Glustrode destroyed. On the other hand Bayaz speaks about Juvens with a certain contempt as a high minded fool and certainly if there is any good in Bayaz or the Magi it seems to come from the Art of Juvens. And it seems clear that Juvens protected Bayaz when he fled from the wrath of the Maker.

Since Abercrombie is gradually turning around our expectations, I expect we'll find out that actually Bayaz had a hand in killing Juvens too, or more likely came upon Juvens when wounded and struck the killing blow.

What's very interesting is whether there can be said to be any redeeming moral qualities to Bayaz at all. I'd also love to know more of the backstory, although obviously Abercrombie is going to do the mythic thing and tease it out slowly.

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so riffing of this, I was quite interested in the portrayal of Juvens in the books. On the one hand, the Union looks like a poor man's copy of the empire Juvens established in the South which his brother Glustrode destroyed. On the other hand Bayaz speaks about Juvens with a certain contempt as a high minded fool and certainly if there is any good in Bayaz or the Magi it seems to come from the Art of Juvens. And it seems clear that Juvens protected Bayaz when he fled from the wrath of the Maker.

Since Abercrombie is gradually turning around our expectations, I expect we'll find out that actually Bayaz had a hand in killing Juvens too, or more likely came upon Juvens when wounded and struck the killing blow.

What's very interesting is whether there can be said to be any redeeming moral qualities to Bayaz at all. I'd also love to know more of the backstory, although obviously Abercrombie is going to do the mythic thing and tease it out slowly.

I thought it was heavily implied that Bayaz did kill Juvens. It's been awhile since I've read the book, but I think it was made obvious in Last Argument of Kings that he was guilty. I think Yulwei asked about Juvens' death and Bayaz was like, 'Heh, no, I didn't have any part in it *shifty eyes.'

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I thought it was heavily implied that Bayaz did kill Juvens. It's been awhile since I've read the book, but I think it was made obvious in Last Argument of Kings that he was guilty. I think Yulwei asked about Juvens' death and Bayaz was like, 'Heh, no, I didn't have any part in it *shifty eyes.'

Bayaz, even when his character is fully disclosed, does deny killing Juvens. I think the exact phrase was "I say I killed no one". You are right it is possible he did kill Juvens, although there is no plausible motive for the murder.

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Bayaz definitely killed Juvens, along with the Maker and Tolomei.

They were the only people, aside from Khalul, who could contest his power and knowledge (and Bayaz LOVES power). Only reason Khalul managed to survive was because he realized what Bayaz was doing and escaped to his homeland. Even then, Khalul knew Bayaz was stronger than him (because Bayaz had learned Making as well as the Art), so he turned to Eating in order to match his power.

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Why? I think that's not sure.

If Bayaz and Khlul are the two most powerful men in the world because of their art and magic, and both control a part of the world as a puppeteer does and both face each other and hate each other, do you seriously think that, say Bayaz were to kill Khlul since he has the seed, that Bayaz wouldn't then add the Gurkish regions to his influence and control?! I don't see how he wouldn't...so they are trading one master who uses them as pawns for another master who uses them as pawns...

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Bayaz definitely killed Juvens, along with the Maker and Tolomei.

They were the only people, aside from Khalul, who could contest his power and knowledge (and Bayaz LOVES power). Only reason Khalul managed to survive was because he realized what Bayaz was doing and escaped to his homeland. Even then, Khalul knew Bayaz was stronger than him (because Bayaz had learned Making as well as the Art), so he turned to Eating in order to match his power.

I accept that analysis, but isn't it a little hard to believe. After all both Juvens and the Maker are the sons of great Euz himself and their skill and their power is described as magnitudes greater than that of the apprentices. How exactly did Bayaz manage to kill Juvens and the Maker? Maybe Tolomei did the deed and her father would not harm her?

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I think Bayaz tricked them. Juvens, he took unawares, and then he fled to the Maker, remember he'd studied with the Maker before, and said, "DUDE, YOUR BRO WAS CRAZY WHEN HE LEARNED THAT I LEARNED MAKING, HE GREW WROTH AND I HAD TO KILL HIM TO SAVE MY LIFE MAN." The Maker was like, "Aight, dude." Then Bayaz nods to Tolomei, she knocks her dad off the top of the tower, and then Bayaz tosses her off.

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If Bayaz and Khalul are the two most powerful men in the world because of their art and magic, and both control a part of the world as a puppeteer does and both face each other and hate each other, do you seriously think that, say Bayaz were to kill Khlul since he has the seed, that Bayaz wouldn't then add the Gurkish regions to his influence and control?! I don't see how he wouldn't...so they are trading one master who uses them as pawns for another master who uses them as pawns...

If one of the two manages to kill the other, you are right.

But if for example someone in the Union somehow comes to kill Bayaz, I do not see why the Union should automatically fall to Khalul.

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If one of the two manages to kill the other, you are right.

But if for example someone in the Union somehow comes to kill Bayaz, I do not see why the Union should automatically fall to Khalul.

Because Khalul has all the abilities that Bayaz has and can easily install a closed council group and others in key places that are more receptive to the Gurkish. And slowly incorporate the two into a larger nation, an empire or simply keep them separate but with very strong/close relations...I don't see why that is such a stretch?

Khalul has done the same to the Gurkish as Bayaz has done to the Union. So why are either one of them different than each other? It's like Stalin and Hitler.

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Dunno, the monarchy of Gurkhul seems to be independent of Khalul to a far degree more than the Union is to Bayaz. Remember Uthman-ul-Dosht was willing to negotiate with the Union, but Sulfur killed his envoy. It wasn't even Khalul who killed the envoy. We don't know how Gurkish politics work, but it's entirely possible that Uthman-ul-Dosht could have ended the war, if the Union agreed, without Khalul's assent.

Moreover, Uthman-ul-Dosht sounds like a badass in general. My crackpot theory is that Ferro was chosen for Uthman by Khalul, and that Khalul has, over a thousand years, slowly been breeding demon-bloods - since he knows his Eaters aren't enough. Under this theory, the reason Uthman-ul-Dosht was able to rape Ferro/keep her as a slave when she clearly has superhuman strength is because he too had that kind of strength. And any kids he had with Ferro are even stronger (this extension of the theory hinges on that Ferro's PoV never thinks about her kids because she's insane.)

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The Gurkish Emperor seems to be an aberration; he is resisting Khalul's influence, knowing that it would difficult to replace him. Bayaz would likely have the same problem if he hadn't been guiding the inheritance so closely. It is harder for Khalul to do the same, since he's a very public figure.

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Interesting ideas guys.

I had always just assumed that both of them are the "same" and that both were bad eggs, just in different ways. It was more or less half a dozen of one and 6 of the other. Perhaps I am wrong. That was just the impression I had. I, as previously stated, have not yet read BSC so perhaps I haven't read all the info that you guys had. It just seems, at least on the surface, that both are evil and both have played their roles using humans as puppets, both breaking one of the first 2 rules of Juvens, using the others' power as an excuse as to why breaking those rules is alright.

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I do like the conjecture and thoughts, but you are all forgetting a key point or two. Bayaz killed the Maker, Tolomei, and I believe Juvens as well. It's heartily implied throughout that Bayaz discusses how the tale is written by the victors and his quote about it at the end is "I say (emphasis on he says) I killed no one."

But the point is, if you find a way to bring down Bayaz, who at this point is more powerful than anyone on the planet (we've heard of), he has easily surpassed his masters which would put him well over Khalul in power. So if someone found a way to bring him down, odds are they could also deal with Khalul should he find his way over to the Union to try and make a power grab. It's not like someone is going to just get lucky and catch Bayaz asleep with his door unlocked.

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