Dune

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LooN, Jon,

Okay, fair enough. I need to re-read God Emperor anyway.

[Original Ned's Bones]

I agree with Roland, Dune is an awesome self-contained novel. You can understand the consequences of what happened in Dune and what it will mean to the human species, without slogging through 5(?) more novels of philisophical meandering (sorry, I know many will disagree) and be left with an open ending that is far-less satisfactory than the Dune ending. It's one of my favorite books that I pick up every couple of years, but I won't read the others again.

[lotuspixie]

Glad to see a Dune thread on here already, so I'm resurrecting this thread.

I read Dune a month ago and just finished Messiah... <_<

And I can't help but feel like I must have missed something. I went to amazon and read all sorts of glowing reviews of Messiah, and then I took a look at this thread, and while some people think all the sequels are crap, a whole lot of people think the series gets better as it goes on.

I loved LOVED Dune. Jessica, Paul, Chani, even little Alia were all interesting characters who felt real and with whom I could most definitely epathize. There were reasons for their actions. I cared about their wellbeing.

But Messiah? Can someone help me understand why people like this book? I'm not being glib. I'm serious. Please help me understand! Some of the reviews talked about how emotional and sad and powerful it was. Well, I say it could have been those things, but the characters were completely uninteresting, so when heart-breaking things happen, I just sort of shrugged my shoulders and wondered why I should care.

I feel like Paul, Alia and Chani's personalities were largely left out of the book, and the hole was filled in with meandering descriptions of Paul's "vision."

[Fez]

You're not alone. While I really quite liked Dune a lot; I couldn't stand the rest of the books. I hear the rest of are so deep and philosophical, but I find them boring as hell and the world-building no longer engrossing.

[The Imp's Advocate]

Actually, I heard an interesting theory about the original Dune. Apparently, Herbert was rooming with Jack Vance when he wrote it, and that contributed a lot to its quality. Anyone know if that's true?

But yeah, lotuspixie, the books got worse and worse as time went on. Dune was utterly fantastic, superb in almost every way. I can accept Messiah and Children because they continue the arc of the original story, even though they aren't nearly as well-written and are just coasting off the first book's strength. The last three were just totally nonsensical to me about half the time, and boring the other half.

Dune is the only one I reread over and over. It is in a totally different league than the rest of the series.

[aimlessgun]

Dune is on another level. However, I do know that I enjoyed most of the sequels, but it's been so long I can't properly defend them :(

[Rhadamanth]

As in all things entertainment, YMMV. I enjoyed all of the Frank Herbert Dune books but I can see why some people might not. If it's not your cup of tea, move on. Plenty of other things to read.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

And I can't help but feel like I must have missed something. I went to amazon and read all sorts of glowing reviews of Messiah, and then I took a look at this thread, and while some people think all the sequels are crap, a whole lot of people think the series gets better as it goes on.

So I recently re-read the first three books. I have always been a fan of the entire Herbert series, but I felt like I was able to read them this time with a more critical eye.

And honestly, I thought Messiah was one of the worst pieces of shit I have ever read. It was fucking horrendous. Soooo poorly written, the characters were flimsy, their actions were totally unbelievable. To me it felt like an entire book made up of Paul whining. There was very little action, although some of the action events/images were totally epic and have always stuck with me (such as the final happenings). I have read many of Herbert's other books and Messiah is by far the worst of them all. I could barely make myself continue, even though I remember loving the later books the first time I read them.

But then I carried on and re-read Children and I was once again amazed because it felt like Messiah and Children were written by two completely different people. Children was dense and sophisticated like Dune was, it had some really interesting characters who were much more believable, and it set the stage for the later books in a much more satisfying manner than Messiah-the-piece-of-crap. I seriously loved the eponymous children in Children; they've always been some of my favorite sci-fi characters, ever. I know that Herbert initially did not want to continue the series after Dune and to me that is totally evident in Messiah, but it felt like he really got his groove back with Children. I love that book, and would highly recommend that you read it. It's a shame we all have to slog through Messiah to get to it.

I'm glad you resurrected this thread, because I have a lot of thoughts about the series that I didn't have the first time I read it. I also have far more critiques - for example, I was surprised at how many inconsistencies there were, like, seriously glaring inconsistencies. I also became more and more convinced that the psuedo-philosophical bullshit that so many of the characters were spewing was actually meaningless - it wasn't the case that I was too stupid to understand it, which is what I used to think. But despite the bad parts (which I'd love to hash out), there are so many great ideas and images and scenes in the later books that I will always love them. Except for Messiah.

So I don't know about you guys but I'd love to get this conversation going again.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I've always been fond of Chapterhouse. It is the first first print hardback book I ever purchased. I liked the change of scenery. I really enjoyed the Characters. Teg and Odrade are two of my favorites. I loved the open ended way the book ended. It's my favorite of the series right after the original.

[Cantabile]

Chapterhouse was my favorite after the original as well. Added something fresh to the series that the other sequels failed to.

[Stego]

Dune is a stand alone novel.

[Bronn Stone]

Dune is a stand alone novel.

Had Herbert lived, I believe that he was on the way to something special after Heretics and Chapterhouse. But since he didn't and they fizzle out unresolved, I'd have to agree.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Dune is a stand alone novel.

I agree. Dune is the perfect stand alone novel. But unfortunately he had to keep writing and some of the things he wrote marred that amazing Star Wars-ian ending. For example, I HATED the storyline of Alia in the following books. I mean, at the end of Dune she was the coolest, most baddest ass character. Man, she was so fucking rad.

But since Herbert decided to follow up with the cellular memory concept and the dangers inherent in it,

he had to do something with Alia and it made sense that she would be the perfect foil for Leto and Ghanima. Unfortunately, the reason that Leto and Ghanima succeeded where Alia did not always struck me as kind of lame. Also, Alia became utterly uninteresting, too easy to vilify, too stupid to worry about, and generally pathetic. The amazing St. Alia of the Knife was ruined.

So sometimes in my head I like to pretend that Dune and the rest of the series are two different entities so that the perfection of Dune won't be in anyway tainted. That being the case, the rest of the series has some truly awesome and epic shit in it. I mean, really cool. As for as I see it, it doesn't make sense to entirely reject the awesomeness of the rest of the series because Dune is so perfect. Why punish the kick-ass Chapterhouse when it's not Chapterhouse's fault that Dune ruled to such an extent, even to the surprise of it's own author?

[Lummel]

Very much agree with the above.

Dune was great, inflicted Messiah on myself Children of Dune was interesting but mainly to see the start of the enviromental changes that the Fremen had been so long planning for. Loved the opening to God Emperor, liked the scene with the Atreides Woman in the desert with the God Emperor and seeing what had become of the Fremen in the reserve, but I really had to drag myself through the rest of the book and that's put me off looking at the last two Dune sequels.

[The Imp's Advocate]

Anyone know about the Jack Vance story I heard? That they were roommates while Herbert was writing Dune?

[LugaJetboyGirl]

The Wikipedia entry on Vance says this, but doesn't give a date:

Science fiction authors Frank Herbert and Poul Anderson were among Vance's closest friends. The three jointly built a houseboat which they sailed in the Sacramento Delta. The Vances and the Herberts lived near Lake Chapala in Mexico together for a period.

[Rhom]

Everything about the original Dune was perfect. It was a tightly contained narrative that told a complete story in one book. It was very refreshing for me since I read it after I had been reading numerous unending series like Wheel of Time and Song of Ice and Fire. The concept of a story that could be told in one book without the need of a trilogy was nearly foreign to me. Then I had to go and pick up Dune Messiah...

I will agree with Luga that there are some set pieces and specific moments from the sequels that still stand out in my memory, but nothing like the original Dune for a tight narrative with a real purpose.

[Cantabile]

It's a real shame that Dune never got a film or other media that lives up to its awesomeness. The miniseries was certainly better than nothing, but this is the Lord of the Rings of Sci-Fi we're talking about here; it deserves more than that.

[sologdin]

you mean twin peaks with toto soundtrack, captain picard, and unauthorized tech doesn't get your blood pumping?

[manmiles]

you mean twin peaks with toto soundtrack, captain picard, and unauthorized tech doesn't get your blood pumping?

Well, it gets mine. At least the Lynch film has a look and a feel that is not easily replicated, giving it a distinct visual identity all it's own. Unfortunately, it diverges from the plot in several regards simply due to run-time. The Sci-Fi TV-Movies contain more plot, but visually, they're just so generic. I like the Lynch film, what can I say?