Male authors writing female characters vs female authors and male characters

[MinDonner]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. Will have to be brief with my $0.02, cos I'm supposed to be working, but for the most part, it's kind of like this:

Many male authors writing female characters seem to be writing them specifically because they've reached a point in the plot that says "insert female here"; GRRM aside, it rarely seems to be a case of "well I want a character with complicated motivation X, and that would affect the story in ways Y and Z", cos those parts usually go to the men. So, it's less that the female characters are bad, more just underdeveloped and lazy; their gender is their sole reason for appearing in the story at any point.

Female authors do this to a certain extent as well, of course, but much less so; their female characters are at least slightly more likely to have different reasons for appearing in the plot, and there might even be more than one of them on screen at the same time (and not just to fight over the hero, either).

[Galactus]

Basically, men won't write women unless they have some *specific* reason to write a woman. (hyperbole, yes, a bit. But not that much)

[Happy Ent]

Nice responses.

Would anybody want to stick their neck out and point to a female character well-written by a woman? Elizabeth Bennet? Lillian Rearden?

So far we have Hermione, which is a valid answer, I guess.

[A wilding]

Can you give an example? I think I see what you're getting at, but i'm not really sure.

Off the top of my head, Miles Vorkosigan in Bujold's A Civil Campaign. It is a while since I read it, but I remember in particular a jarring moment when he went to his mother to ask advice on how to get the girl. A man like Miles might ask someone like his mother about practical political/social issues relating to getting married, but never for help persuading the girl to agree in the first place.

(Though possibly Bujold is a soft target.)

[Datepalm]

Nice responses.

Would anybody want to stick their neck out and point to a female character well-written by a woman? Elizabeth Bennet? Lillian Rearden?

The Mists of Avalon (Marion Zimmer Bradley) - Admittedly I read it years ago and its not exactly my favorite book ever, but I thought it had generally convincing, autonomous female characters. OTOH, I don't remember the men there much at all, though thaat makes sense if the whole point was to focus on the women.

Kivrin the Doomsday Book (Connie Willis) was great - hardly any thinking about romance, lots of initiative and action, but no being 'a man with breasts' or any particular emotional hardness. She's just...normal.

...and that goes to show my paucity of reading female authors.

A man like Miles might ask someone like his mother about practical political/social issues relating to getting married, but never for help persuading the girl to agree in the first place.

Beacuse this is simply not a relashionship a man would have with his mother, while a woman of similar temperament and experience would? What i'm trying to get at is, is this wrong because "men just don't to their mothers about love, ever, any men, in any society", or "given the gender norms in this society, this isn't something this man would do (but a woman might)"

[A wilding]

Beacuse this is simply not a relashionship a man would have with his mother, while a woman of similar temperament and experience would? What i'm trying to get at is, is this wrong because "men just don't to their mothers about love, ever, any men, in any society", or "given the gender norms in this society, this isn't something this man would do (but a woman might)"

In a patriarchal society where men are expected to take the initiative in relationships I find it difficult to imagine a self confident, intelligent, sexually experienced, socially competent man like Miles asking his mother's advice. Possibly an author could construct such a society where it was normal, but I see no argument for saying that Vor is like that (despite the existence of matchmakers).

I find it a little difficult to articulate my certainty, but try this. In such a society, a man's self esteem is going to be bound up with his "ability" with women. Needing help from his mother, or even admitting his mother might be able to help, would horribly damage that self esteem. And probably men would in general not talk much about love to their mothers, except perhaps to boast, but that is another issue.

I can't speak for what a woman would discuss with her mother. :)

[David Selig]

Yeah, but Miles is not exactly someone who follows the norms of the patriachial Vor society. His mother comes from a totally egalitarian society and brought him up this way, plus he spent most of his active life with his mercenaries around the galaxy where the norms are from what've seen really different and there is a gender equality unlike on Barryar. So it's really not that strange he doesn't follow the norms of the Vor society.

If it was Ivan Vorpatril or someone like him doing it, it would've been ridiculous for sure, but from Miles it didn't bother me at all.

[Galactus]

I rather like whatsherface from Paladin of Souls. (Isla? Isa? Isha?)

[A wilding]

I agree that the Betan society is a very different one, weird and somewhat controlling (IIRC therapists "guide" adolescents though their first orgasm - downright creepy). And also that Miles is not a typical Vor, and is used to much more equal societies.

But even, for the sake of argument, say that Miles was part of a completely egalitarian society, I still don't see him, as a mature adult, turning to his mother. Even in such a society, IMO a man would still need self confidence to be an attractive mate, a self confidence that I would see as incompatible with asking for maternal help in such a matter.

Our society is not quite equal, but a straw poll might still help. Does any 30 year old male think they would ask their mother for advice in such a situation? I am about half a generation out of touch, but I wouldn't have thought so.

[Luzifer's right hand]

I rather like whatsherface from Paladin of Souls. (Isla? Isa? Isha?)

Ista is a great character.

[Kat]

Conversely to what koolkat (I think it was her) said earlier in the thread, I actually like Robin Hobb's female characters, especially in the Liveships books. (I wasn't all that fond of Molly. I guess she worked as a character, but I never found her interesting enough to merit the vast amount of time that Fitz spends pining over her, although I guess it's hard to understand total infatuation when you're just reading about someone rather than seeing them.)

I liked Cordelia Vorkosigan in the books that she was the main character in. (Re: Miles asking his mother for advice, I don't see that as out of place in a society where they place a great deal of importance on family in general.)

I don't generally read urban fantasy of the vampires & werewolves variety, but I was pleasantly surprised by some of the characters in Kelley Armstong's books, which I haven't read all of and I think I read them out of order, but Paige was cool.

This is hard to do when I am not looking directly at my bookshelf, because I read a bunch of explicitly feminist stuff last year but can't remember the character names atm.

[Datepalm]

But even, for the sake of argument, say that Miles was part of a completely egalitarian society, I still don't see him, as a mature adult, turning to his mother. Even in such a society, IMO a man would still need self confidence to be an attractive mate, a self confidence that I would see as incompatible with asking for maternal help in such a matter.

Our society is not quite equal, but a straw poll might still help. Does any 30 year old male think they would ask their mother for advice in such a situation? I am about half a generation out of touch, but I wouldn't have thought so.

...But would any 30 year old woman? (or rather, would she go to her father to ask for tips to bag a guy?) I can see that this is a jarring piece of characterization, but i'm not sure what about it necessarily says "ah, obviously, a woman wrote this, and she got men wrong."

[The Evil Hat]

I think that what matters is that they're a well rounded character, and I think that how they fit into their gender stems from that, not the other way around. Gender is a part of the puzzle, but not the only part, and I think that it usually seems weird (barring a few exceptional examples) when the genre is all there is. If a well written female character has primarily male friends, that says something about her, but if a poorly written character has only male friends, then it comes off as simply not knowing the character or not having thought through her relationships. That's why Hermione did seem believable to me, as well as feminine. Yes, she had many of the telltale signs of a Man with Breasts, but the fact that she's primarily friends with Harry and Ron is less off when you consider her general shyness, how secretly pleased with the whole Krum/ball affair in the fourth book, etc, and it becomes something that simply affects her character, not defines it.

[Liadin]

Nice responses.

Would anybody want to stick their neck out and point to a female character well-written by a woman? Elizabeth Bennet? Lillian Rearden?

So far we have Hermione, which is a valid answer, I guess.

Elizabeth Bennet is pretty good, and Jane Austen has great women in some of her other books as well. Ayn Rand's characterization is poor in general, so Lillian Rearden no.

Any of the women in Isabel Allende's House of the Spirits would count.

Amy Tan's characterization is quite good (if somewhat repetitive).

To cite some lesser-known examples from my recent reading (all books I highly recommend): Emilia and Luzia in Frances de Pontes Peebles's The Seamstress were excellent, and nicely broke down the myth of the tomboy/girly-girl dichotomy; the women in Sarah Micklem's Firethorn are notable for fulfilling societal roles done to death in books by men (i.e. whores and mistresses) but being well-rounded and interesting at the same time; the women in Alma Alexander's The Secrets of Jin-Shei and The Embers of Heaven are lovely because they're such a diverse group and the books turn the typical fantasy gender ratios on their heads (almost all the important characters are women).

I suppose I could provide more examples if I knew what you were looking for: well-written female characters in the literary sense, or characters that are believably and relatably female? I quite liked Scarlett O'Hara, if we're not going too literary here.

...But would any 30 year old woman? (or rather, would she go to her father to ask for tips to bag a guy?) I can see that this is a jarring piece of characterization, but i'm not sure what about it necessarily says "ah, obviously, a woman wrote this, and she got men wrong."

Some women might go to their mothers about this if they have that sort of relationship (I would not). Fathers--hell no.

Conversely to what koolkat (I think it was her) said earlier in the thread, I actually like Robin Hobb's female characters, especially in the Liveships books.

I don't have a problem with Hobb's women, actually. I'd be willing to add Kettricken to the list of well-written female characters, and perhaps Epiny as well (proof that her men aren't always more interesting than the men: Epiny was far more interesting than Nevare, although in the last two books that's not saying much).

[Liadin]

On Hermione: one of the things that bugs me the most about the Harry Potter books is that the main trio doesn't make sense to me as a realistic group of friends. I was a female nerd in middle and high school and I just can't fathom a preteen or young teenage female nerd spending all her time with a couple of guys who aren't in the least nerds and share none of her interests. I would believe it more if Hermione was male, or Harry and Ron female, because I think there's a certain amount of male bonding/female bonding that allows us to become friends with people very unlike us in certain circumstances, but I really don't see it cross-gender and at that age.

It felt to me like Rowling wanted to assemble a trio that was diverse in both gender and interests, and she didn't want the girl to just be "the chick" (as would have happened if Ron and Hermione's roles had been reversed), but she wound up with a group that just don't ring true for me. The in-story explanation--they became best friends after the troll incident--I don't buy because it's not my experience that sharing a stressful situation with someone means you will want to be around them 24/7 from there on out, even if it is a "bonding experience" at the time. As for the "Hermione was too shy to make other friends" explanation.... that implies that she's just tagging around after and forcing herself on Harry and Ron once she has an in, rather than be by herself, but that's not actually how the dynamic of their relationship is written.

From a "what are the implications of Rowling's choices, what tropes does she use and what does this say to young readers?" standpoint I suppose it's better than having Ron the nerd and Hermione the chick, or simply not having a girl in the group (and two girls and Harry would raise eyebrows even though two guys and Hermione for some reason doesn't), but... meh.

[fionwe1987]

On Hermione: one of the things that bugs me the most about the Harry Potter books is that the main trio doesn't make sense to me as a realistic group of friends. I was a female nerd in middle and high school and I just can't fathom a preteen or young teenage female nerd spending all her time with a couple of guys who aren't in the least nerds and share none of her interests. I would believe it more if Hermione was male, or Harry and Ron female, because I think there's a certain amount of male bonding/female bonding that allows us to become friends with people very unlike us in certain circumstances, but I really don't see it cross-gender and at that age.

It felt to me like Rowling wanted to assemble a trio that was diverse in both gender and interests, and she didn't want the girl to just be "the chick" (as would have happened if Ron and Hermione's roles had been reversed), but she wound up with a group that just don't ring true for me. The in-story explanation--they became best friends after the troll incident--I don't buy because it's not my experience that sharing a stressful situation with someone means you will want to be around them 24/7 from there on out, even if it is a "bonding experience" at the time. As for the "Hermione was too shy to make other friends" explanation.... that implies that she's just tagging around after and forcing herself on Harry and Ron once she has an in, rather than be by herself, but that's not actually how the dynamic of their relationship is written.

From a "what are the implications of Rowling's choices, what tropes does she use and what does this say to young readers?" standpoint I suppose it's better than having Ron the nerd and Hermione the chick, or simply not having a girl in the group (and two girls and Harry would raise eyebrows even though two guys and Hermione for some reason doesn't), but... meh.

Their friendship worked for me because I always got the impression that there was more than books and intelligence to Hermione. While rules and success matter to her (though less than they do to, say, Percy), she also has a pretty big non-conformist streak. I think she finds Ron and Harry attractive as friends becuase they bring that part of her character out. They compliment her when she breaks rules with them, and I think she really likes that. Later, of course, she gets to mother them, which I think she likes as well.

[Kat]

Their friendship worked for me because I always got the impression that there was more than books and intelligence to Hermione. While rules and success matter to her (though less than they do to, say, Percy), she also has a pretty big non-conformist streak. I think she finds Ron and Harry attractive as friends becuase they bring that part of her character out. They compliment her when she breaks rules with them, and I think she really likes that. Later, of course, she gets to mother them, which I think she likes as well.

The friendship worked for me as well, even though she is pretty much playing a role in the group because, well, some people enjoy having a fairly defined role in a group. I've been the token nerd before; it gives me something to do. Hermione enjoys independent research, so once she falls in with Harry and Ron the adventures provide an outlet where she is needed--not necessarily 100% valued--for her knowledge and skills.

[Rakka]

Even in such a society, IMO a man would still need self confidence to be an attractive mate, a self confidence that I would see as incompatible with asking for maternal help in such a matter.

I disagree. Societies that are more family-oriented (where "family" extends to second cousin's kids and the deceased great-great-grandparents) wouldn't have such a hangup on "mustn't ask mother for help in relationship problems" issue. Considering that the world depicted in the Kalevala is far from equal, the guys there pretty much run to mama when something goes wrong. And they go against their mothers' wishes they likely as not end up dead in the river of Death, in a dozen pieces, and need their mom to patch them up again. Family was very important to ancient Finns.

So it's more a cultural issue than gender one.

[Guest]

I think its interesting that nobody has mentioned that men and women are actually different biologically. The morphology of the brain is different the hormonal milieau is different, the actual patterns of neurological activation to stimuli are different. This difference is noticable at birth and it gives rise to cross cultural consistent patterns between men and women. Sex may not be binary but it clearly bimodal and the people who end up in between the poles are far less common then those who are basically male or basically female.

One of the consistent findings is that women have more complex and powerful emotional life and are better able to pick up and read emotions in others. Its then easy to understand how women can write men well the essentially there moving down and order of complexity in having to model and understand male behavior and thinking were as the opposite is true for men. If you look at play behavior for instance girl children will engage in all the same play behavior as males but will engage in wider range of play behavior and have far less drive for play behaviors like rough and tumble which males are highly driven towards.

[Galactus]

I don't have a problem with Hobb's women, actually. I'd be willing to add Kettricken to the list of well-written female characters, and perhaps Epiny as well (proof that her men aren't always more interesting than the men: Epiny was far more interesting than Nevare, although in the last two books that's not saying much).

Oh I don't have a problem with Hobb's women on their own: She's a GREAT character writer (for "what she does" arguably the best in fantasy atm.) but I find there's a definite gap between her male and female characters in complexity and... Depth. They seem way more archetypical.