A Thread for Small Questions IV

[KAH]

Not an error in the earlier books. See ASoS, where the brotherhood without banners runs through the litany of the dead they lay at the Lannister feet: "Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, Little Lord Darry". My own take on this is that Ser Raymun was heir to an aged, ailing Lord Darry we never meet, and then he dies some time after Ser Raymun is killed. Of course, things get confused with Ser Raymun's chambers being called the lord's bedchambers, etc. The only way I can fit these facts together is that either Ser Raymun is actually Lord Darry, but just prefers his usage of 'Ser', or it may be that his father or uncle or what have you has vacated the premises for sunnier climes (or perhaps he's joined a septry without relinquishing his title) and Raymun basically runs the show.

I'm thinking it's a personal preference. I've always thought of knighthood as distinctly qualitatively different from lordship, not only quantitatively (in terms of power).

You can be born a lord, or born to become a lord when your father dies, but you have to earn knighthood. A lord is bound in ways that a knight need not be, with obligations to a liege. A knight can also take on obligations to men, of course, but he is foremostly bound to a code. Lords have to fit into the feudal structure, but any knight can make a knight.

So I don't think it's strange if some lords prefer being called Ser, even if the former role is where real power is bestowed. Many a lord will never know a prouder moment than when he earns his knighthood.

[CFdS]

If Ser Raymun was the Lord Darry the list should have be something like "Ser Raymun, the Lord Darry, Little Lord Darry,..." to clarify this. Of course "Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry" could be the same as "Catelyn Tully, Lady Stark" but it doesn't ring right to me (what does not mean too much since I am not even a native English speaker).

[Evrach]

Ser Raymun's chambers being called the lord's bedchambers, etc.

Or maybe the old Lord Darry is too old & senile, he can no more rule, nor get up the stairs to go in his bedchambers ; so Raymun uses it ^^ Haven't we discuss this some time before ?

[winterqueen]

I was just looking at pictures of the 2011 ASOIAF calendar and I had a thought. Since Casterly Rock and Highgarden are in the calendar, does that mean we will finally have a POV at these castles in the upcoming books? Has GRRM ever commented on a storyline being played out at Casterly Rock or Highgarden? It seems strange to me to have these castles featured in the calendar but never to see them in the books.

[Lord Mord]

According to the Wiki, Skagos rebelled 100 years ago. Isn't that the same time that the Lords of Winterfell and Casterly Rock were castigating the Ironborn? Were the Starks working both coasts at the same time?

[Lady Winter Rose]

I have small question with short answer.

When Tyrion in asos think that everyone in the court are laughing about his code not touch your women if she does not want it (not raping her), especially if she is a child, does court make joke about his code or about Sansa's desirability? (Does court laughing -Sansa is worse than whore or -Tyrion could not do it?)

[Ran]

Lady Winter Rose,

I would suppose they are laughing at Tyrion. Either he's impotent or so ugly that he's frightened off his wife or something of the sort.

KAH,

It would be extremely unusual for a southron lord to insist on the 'Ser' usage, though. It's pretty much expected you're a knight, after all. The only example we have for sure is Ser Helman Tallhart, Lord of Torrhen's Square, who seems to prefer referencing his knighthood because he's very unusual in the North.

But as I said, maybe that's it. Other details make me less sure.

Lord Caspen,

I believe one of the Wolf Women is the widow of a Stark lord killed dealing with the Skaggs. I'm not sure if the Skagg rebellion as exactly at the same time as Vickon Greyjoy's troublemaking, however. If 100 years is accurate, it would predate the ironborn reaving.

There's a twenty year span or so there where the North faced a lot of trouble: the Skagg rebellion, the Greyjoy raids on the western coast, and Raymun Redbeard's attack from beyond the Wall.

[Mad Monkey]

They didn't know about Tyrion's pledge, I think.

[feardeathbywater]

According to the Wiki, Skagos rebelled 100 years ago. Isn't that the same time that the Lords of Winterfell and Casterly Rock were castigating the Ironborn? Were the Starks working both coasts at the same time

Funny, I thought it was 1,000 years. Perhaps no one noticed (or cared) until 100 years previous.

[Supakrupa]

Hi everyone. I have a question regarding the old man that Littlefinger and Sansa meet after he helps her escape. If I recall correctly, the old man's related to the Kettleblacks some how. Also, was there a mention of the Kettleblacks knowing of the assassination of Joffrey? If someone could give a quick explanation of what happened here that'd be great thanks :)

[Ran]

Oswell is the father of the three Kettleblack brothers in King's Landing, which means that they are basically Littlefinger's agents to some degree.

Oswell knows the truth of the assassination of Joffrey, that it was carried out with Littlefinger's connivance, given that he was there when Sansa was brought aboard the Merling King. I am unsure if Oswell's sons know anything specific about it, though. In theory, the fewer people who know the truth of things, the better.

[Supakrupa]

Interesting. I recall it being written in a way that suggested the 3 sons were in on it too though. I must be misremembering. Must reread all 4 before 5th comes out... That would've made for some juicy ending to Cersei's reign too though! Whichever brother was the one being chained and tortured at the end telling her they were the ones who helped kill her son! Take that you evil bitch! Hehe

Thanks.

[Mad Monkey]

Osney is the one being tortured.

It's a long quote, so I'll summarize it with speech tags:

Littlefinger: When the Imp sent off her guards, the queen had Ser Lancel hire sellswords for her. Lancel found her the Kettleblacks, which delighted your little lord husband, since the lads were in his pay through his man Bronn. But it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King’s Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords. Three hidden daggers, Alayne, now perfectly placed.

Sansa: So one of the Kettleblacks put the poison in Joffrey‘s cup?

Littlefinger: Did I say that? The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme . . . and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him. I love the juice but I loathe the sticky fingers. Clean hands, Sansa. Whatever you do, make certain your hands are clean.

Sansa: But if it wasn’t the Kettleblacks and it wasn’t Ser Dontos... you weren’t even in the city, and it couldn’t have been Tyrion...

LF goes on to suggest that Olenna Tyrell took the poison from Sansa's hairnet and threw it, but he carefully ruled out the Kettleblacks and implied that they weren't directly involved (in the assassination plot, that is).

[StrongBelwas]

Interesting. I recall it being written in a way that suggested the 3 sons were in on it too though.

We aren't given 100% of the information needed to know all the details of the assassination, but we know some facts. Firstly recall the prologue of ACoK. Maester Cressen attempts to kill Melisandre will the poison called "The Strangler". In solid form it appears to look like a small gem (violet I think?) but when dropped in liquid it quickly dissolves. When consumed it works quickly to tighten the muscles in the neck, choking off the airway and killing the drinker. Mel used her powers to overcome the poison while Cressen was killed by it. This is the same poison used on Joffery.

We know that a dose of The Strangler was inserted as a gem into Sansa's Hair net by an unknown person in Littlefingers employ. At the feast, Olenna Tyrell "adjusted" the net to remove the poison dose. It is unlikely she dosed the kings wine herself (recall littlefingers admonishment to keep your hands clean) so I believe she passed the poison dose to someone near her who did the deed. The actual moment of the act is unknown. There are also some who believe that Lady Merryweather was perceptive enough to actually see the poisoner at work but stayed silent thinking she could somehow leverage the knowledge later to put herself in Cersei's favor. She was smart enough to know that maesters would determine the nature of the poison and that it would have been "dropped" into the kings cup even though she herself had no idea what the dose actually was. Her shrewdness was rewarded when she was able to lie later and say she saw Tyrion commit the act, thus earning her way into Cersei's graces. She then continued to worm her way deeper into Cersei's confidences all throughout AFfC.

There are others who believe Lady Merryweather actually saw nothing at all but is herself in Littlefinger's employ and that her false testimony was a part of a plot of his to get her closer to Cersei.

As far as the three Kettleblack sons being involved in Joffery's death, it's unlikely. Littlefinger is pretty clear that none of them are very trustworthy, especially Osmund who became a kingsguard. They are likely spys for littlefinger, reporting to their father who feeds info back to Petyr. But their loyalities are mostly to themselves, as evidenced by Osney's willingness to put himself in hot water just to get into Cersei's skirts. Had Osney been more loyal to Petyr he never would have done something so reckless.

[jurble]

You know, Tyrion told Jaime that Cersei was fucking Osmund Kettleblack, iirc, yet when Jaime gets the letter, it obviously says Osney is the accused. How come we don't get a reaction from Jaime going "Eh, two Kettleblacks?" or something along those lines.

Or did Tyrion say Osney?

[StrongBelwas]

You know, Tyrion told Jaime that Cersei was fucking Osmund Kettleblack, iirc, yet when Jaime gets the letter, it obviously says Osney is the accused. How come we don't get a reaction from Jaime going "Eh, two Kettleblacks?" or something along those lines.

Or did Tyrion say Osney?

Well, Tyrion said Osmund, but the letter says nothing about why Cersei is in trouble, it just indicates that she is:

Come at once. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once.

But to extend an answer to your question, Jaime doesn't care about his sister anymore. His lost hand has changed him, humbled him in a way. As we see in his AFfC chapters, his opinions of Cersei have evolved from lust to disgust. I see Jaime as a person suffering from a form of PTSD extended from his time watching the mad king killing people. He morphed into a fearless personality, not caring about the things that might frighten a common man. Consider his comment to Brienne when the mummers were fixing to rape her. He told her to "go away inside" to make it easier. These are skills he created when he served Arys. Now that his hand is gone he sees the whole world with a new eye, and among many things his view of his sister has drastically changed.

Jaime doesn't give a chamber pot of nightsoil what happens to Cersei. Thus he tosses her letter into the fire. Had the letter mentioned Osney the result would no doubt have been the same.

[Supakrupa]

Oh Ok, so the 3 sons are simply spies for their father, who in turn reported to LF. Thanks for clearing that up.

You know, Tyrion told Jaime that Cersei was fucking Osmund Kettleblack, iirc, yet when Jaime gets the letter, it obviously says Osney is the accused. How come we don't get a reaction from Jaime going "Eh, two Kettleblacks?" or something along those lines.

Or did Tyrion say Osney?

Osmund was the one she liked and did often I believe. Osney the one off as a gesture to make him do what she wants - seducing Margaery.

[jurble]

Well, Tyrion said Osmund, but the letter says nothing about why Cersei is in trouble, it just indicates that she is:

Come at one. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once.

You forget, the rest of the letter was Qyburn explaining the situation.

[Lady Winter Rose]

StrongBewlas

Is it possible that poison is put before opening pi.pie. Because I always compare Margaery's tears with Lysa's tears about tears of Lys because:

Lysa was drunk when LF trow her trough Gates of Moon. She didn't cry at all. Not scream, not weep.

Margaery did cry when Joff was murder. Joff was drunk (because cup was enormous) and evil psycho. I don't think that Margaery would cry for that kind of person, especially after Sansa's chirping. Nor that she was drunk at that moment.

[extraho rex rgis]

Why didn't the Blackfish marry?