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Lady Blackfish

A Thread for Small Questions IV

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Why didn't the Blackfish marry?

There's a Lady Blackfish running around, but that could be a family member or just a fan.

It isn't really specified in the books. Some people suggest that he's gay. He could also be trying to tweak his older brother, or maybe he's secretly impotent and doesn't want his hidden shame revealed, or maybe he likes sleeping around but dislikes adultery, or (and this is my theory here) he doesn't want to settle down and resents the idea of being his Hoster Tully's tool.

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Thanks, I couldn't remember if it was specified, I was just wondering,

after I read the Dany 3 (I think) with the prophecy about the pale mare etc it says the griffin and in medieviel lore griffins not only mated for life, but also, if either partner died, then the other would continue throughout the rest of its life alone, never to search for a new mate. Was thinking maybe it was him. Probably wrong forum if so sorry.

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In A Game Of Thrones Ned and Catelyn talk after sex. Catelyn says: "He (Robert) offers his sin in marriage to our daughter..."(and so on). "Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne." = Little like king don't rule Dorne. Is that because Dorne have its own law's?

Question is: Why she say it like that? Why she did not say: ...to the east shores of Dorne?

Edit: spelling

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In A Game Of Thrones Ned and Catelyn talk after sex. Catelyn says: "He (Robert) offers his sin in marriage to our daughter..."(and so on). "Sansa might someday be queen. Her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne." = Little like king don't rule Dorne. Is that because Dorne have its own law's?

Question is: Why she say it like that? Why she did not say: ...to the east shores of Dorne?

Inner Dorne is pretty mountanious too, so I think its just a figure of speech, like saying the USA streches from the Canadian border to Texas in the south. That dosen't mean is dosen't actually include Texas. Or, since she's using physical features, more like "...to the deserts of Arizona."

Dorne does historically have a different history and relashionship to the throne from the rest of them though, so I suppose its possible thats its a left over figure of speech from before Dorne was brought into the realm when it really did stop at the mountains of Dorne.

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Guest Other-in-Law

Margaery did cry when Joff was murder. Joff was drunk (because cup was enormous) and evil psycho. I don't think that Margaery would cry for that kind of person, especially after Sansa's chirping. Nor that she was drunk at that moment.

Crocodile tears

Acting

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Thanks, I couldn't remember if it was specified, I was just wondering,

after I read the Dany 3 (I think) with the prophecy about the pale mare etc it says the griffin and in medieviel lore griffins not only mated for life, but also, if either partner died, then the other would continue throughout the rest of its life alone, never to search for a new mate. Was thinking maybe it was him. Probably wrong forum if so sorry.

ADwD spoilerz

Probably Jon Connington with a fake Aegon

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I always compare Margaery's tears with Lysa's tears about tears of Lys because:

Lysa was drunk when LF trow her trough Gates of Moon. She didn't cry at all. Not scream, not weep

Margaery did cry when Joff was murder. Joff was drunk (because cup was enormous) and evil psycho. I don't think that Margaery would cry for that kind of person, especially after Sansa's chirping. Nor that she was drunk at that moment.

Other-in-law has stated half of the theory about Margaery, namely that she was acting. I believe the 2nd theory though: that she had no idea what was going on. Margaery is a precious asset to House Tyrell, she would never have been made the poisoner for fear she might get caught. After all she's a highborn maid and surely not the kind of assassin Arya is training to be. One slip up by Margaery would have been an utter disaster for House Tyrell, bringing with it her certain execution and a possible war along the Roseroad. Additionally, it makes little sense to bring her into a plot to kill the king for fear she might make the mistake of saying the wrong thing later (she is 16 after all, and Maegor's Holdfast is full of ears). Finally, murder is gruesome business and I really don't think that Olenna Tyrell wanted her sweet granddaughter mixed up in it. So I propose that maid Margaery is truely innocent of the crime, both directly and indirectly. I'm sure she wept for several reasons: 1. She was witnessing a murder in progress 2. Relief that she was not going to stay married to the monster Sansa told her Joff was, 3. General nerves on a wedding day (the bawdy bedding ritual was about to happen), and 4. her youth (again, she is 16 and some crazy s**t was happening).

I would not compare her tears to Lysa's grief. Lysa was a messed up personality who had a love child by Petyr that was aborted by her father. She was a person forced to live apart from the man she thought she loved for reasons of politics, and her forced abortion soiled her womb causing all future children to be stillborn with the exception of sickly sweetrobin. She was also a murderess herself (Jon Arryn). Hers were the tears of a madwoman.

Although I will grant credit in that you made me consider something I'd never noticed before. Lysa killed Jon Arryn with the "Tears of Lys" "Lys" is one letter short of "Lysa". A foreshadowing device in AGoT perhaps? It's intresting to me to return to AGoT in my mind and combine the 2 terms to form this sentence:

"Jon Arryn was killed by the Tears of Lys(a)"

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Why didn't the Blackfish marry?

There are 2 theories:

1. He is gay.

2. He was in love with Minisa Tully (his brothers wife)

The scraps of info we get about Brynden's backstory paint a fuzzy picture of his broken relationship with his brother Lord Hoster. They fought many times, with intense shouting matches. The arguements were often about the latest lady to whom Hoster had planned the blackfish to wed for various political reasons. Eventually tired of the endless matchmaking and fights, Brynden left Riverrun and joined Jon Arryn's service after his final (and worst) fight with his brother. The siblings parted on rather bad terms, but in the end never really hated each other. Both are essentally good men who seek forgiveness as an instinct. A good thing for the Blackfish too, because if Hoster had possessed a heart alike to either Tywin Lannister or Randall Tarly I think Brynden might have wound up imprisoned or dead for his insolence to his lord brother.

For me, the 2 theories listed above are equally likely. We are given no info about Minisa save that Cat's memories of her are fuzzy and that Minisa was a kind and beautiful woman. The popular idea about the Brinden-was-in-love-with-Minisa theory was that the Blackfish hung around Riverrun and suffered his brother's matchmaking in order to be near to her. When Minisa died his heart left him and thus he left Riverrun to drown his sorrow in service (to Jon Arryn). The reason the final conflict twixt the brothers was so intense was because Brynden revealed his feelings to Hoster after Minisa's funeral.

It would have been interesting had Hoster woken to see his brother at his bedside. I think the little bit of info we might have gleaned from any conversation between them would have settled the issue, but alas it never occured. I know that GRRM has been asked about the relationship between Minisa and Brynden but I do not know what (if anything) Martin has said on the matter.

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You forget, the rest of the letter was Qyburn explaining the situation.

Not exactly. We really don't know exactly what Qyburn wrote.

Cersei chapter:

"Qyburn, for the love you bear me, I beg you, send a message for me. A raven if you can. A rider, if not. You must send to Riverrun, to my brother. Tell him what has happened and write...write..."

"Yes your grace?"

She licked her lips, shivering. "Come at once. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once."

From that we don't know what Qyburn wrote exactly. Perhaps it was simple and said "Cersei got herself jammed up with some zealots for some stuff she did" or maybe it details all the specifics, including the acusation that she had carnal knowledge of Osney. We don't know. And Jaime's reciept of the letter sheds no more light.

Jaime Chapter:

Jaime read it in the window seat, bathed in the light of that cold white morning. Qyburn's words were terse and to the point, Cersei's fevered and fervent"

So again, we do not know what Qyburn wrote. But in the end it matters nothing to the previous point of this discussion, that Jaime might or might not have flipped out if he had learned that Osney Kettleblack was another of Cersei's lovers. I maintain that he does not care about his sister anymore, thus the letter is placed in the fire.

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Guest Other-in-Law

I believe the 2nd theory though: that she had no idea what was going on. Margaery is a precious asset to House Tyrell, she would never have been made the poisoner for fear she might get caught.

She doesn't need to be the actual poisoner; there are more Tyrells available at the scene to do that. Happy Ent has gradually convinced me that Garlan is the man who was in exactly the right place at exacly the right time. And before anyone objects with "That can't be! Because he was being nice to Tyrion during the feast" see the link on acting in my previous post.

Additionally, it makes little sense to bring her into a plot to kill the king for fear she might make the mistake of saying the wrong thing later (she is 16 after all, and Maegor's Holdfast is full of ears). Finally, murder is gruesome business and I really don't think that Olenna Tyrell wanted her sweet granddaughter mixed up in it.

She was hopelessly mixed up in the far more gruesome business of marrying a young Caligula. This passage shows how sharp and aware of the overall situation she was:

The old woman turned back to Sansa. "Are you frightened, child? No need for that, we're only women here. Tell me the truth, no harm will come to you."

"My father always told the truth," Sansa spoke quietly but even so, it was hard to get the words out.

"Lord Eddard, yes, he had that reputation, but they named him traitor and took his head off even so." The old woman's eyes bored into her, sharp and bright as the points of swords.

"Joffrey," Sansa said. "Joffrey did that. He promised me he would be merciful, and he cut my father's head off. He said that was mercy, and he took me up on the walls and made me look at it. The head. He wanted me to weep, but..." She stopped abrubtly, and covered her mouth. I've said too much, oh gods be good, they'll know, they'll hear, someone will tell on me.

"Go on." It was Margaery who urged. Joffrey's own queen to be. Sansa did not know how much she heard.

"I can't." What if she tells him, what if she tells? He'll kill me for certain then, or give me to Ser Ilyn.

The Queen of Thornes is openly contemptuous of so many of her relatives, but Margaery here is taking part in one of her secret counsels...so quietly and subtly that Sansa forgot she was there and in earshot. She's listening to testimony of what a monster Joff is, which will have the potential to make her life a living hell, but she doesn't complain, she just wants to learn the truth about what she's in for...which will be all kinds of beatings and abuse if Sansa's experience is any guide. She's clearly in close confidence with her grandmother. I really don't see how anyone could think she's so naive and out of the loop as to not be part of the plot. For one thing, her position could be absolutely pivotal, at the center of attention and at Joff's side.

So I propose that maid Margaery is truely innocent of the crime, either directly or indirectly. I'm sure she wept for several reasons: 1. She was witnessing a murder in progress 2. Relief that she was not going to stay married to the monster Sansa told her Joff was,
This relief nullifies your claim of how innocent she was. A person's death was a source of relief to her!

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This relief nullifies your claim of how innocent she was. A person's death was a source of relief to her!

It nullifies nothing. I have personally witnessed 2 different people experience relief at the death of a person. In one case it was an abusive parent and in another it was a loveless spouse. Both survivors were essentially “good” people who experienced a natural human reaction to the end of an emotional trauma. Both felt guilt afterwards too.

Margaery knew Joff’s nature. (Thank you for quoting it above, I was not wanting to quote it all from SoS). It was natural for her to cry tears of emotional release over the death of a troll she was forced to marry for political reasons. But I also cite that she cried for other reasons too: Youth, shock, fear, ect. I agree that the quote you provide proves that she is hopelessly mixed up in marring a young Caligula, but it does not add enough value to point to her knowledge of the plot.

There is no proof that Margaery is innocent. There is also no proof that she is complicit. A debate can continue forever on the subject with no resolution. Only GRRM can cut between it and as far as I know he isn’t answering questions about it. I personally believe she didn't know what was going to happen. She didn't have to. One less person in on the plot is one less person to unravel it.

However, on a separate note I’m going to acknowledge your theory about Garlen being the poisoner. It makes perfect sense. He is the only person I can think of who had access to both Olenna Tyrell and Joffery’s cup (with Loras being the only exception). Additionally he is regarded as a trustworthy man who possesses supreme martial skills (traits honored in Westros). His gentle behavior to Tyrion is the perfect screen. Essentially you are right, Garlen Tyrell is the ideal Button Man. Loras is certainly a candidate too, but in the end I think that the white cloak draws too many eyes. Garlen can blend.

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Since winter can last a lifetime, and the first four books seem to cover a time span of late summer-autumn, doesnt it seem a bit rushed to go from "The Winds of Winter" to "A Dream of Spring" in the span of one book? The timeline doesnt quite seem to add up to me. Maybe "A Dream of Spring" is just that, a dream, and doesnt necessarily mean spring is coming or here. Or maybe winter will actually be extremely short after the vanquishing of the Others? Any thoughts?

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Since winter can last a lifetime, and the first four books seem to cover a time span of late summer-autumn, doesnt it seem a bit rushed to go from "The Winds of Winter" to "A Dream of Spring" in the span of one book? The timeline doesnt quite seem to add up to me. Maybe "A Dream of Spring" is just that, a dream, and doesnt necessarily mean spring is coming or here. Or maybe winter will actually be extremely short after the vanquishing of the Others? Any thoughts?

I think you just answered your own question.

Winds of Winter = It's winter

A Dream of Spring = It's still winter

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That's what the word "dream" does mean though. I mean, the war didn't really end even after A Clash of Kings, and people didn't stop playing the game of thrones after the first book. The dream could just mean that they hope they're at the tail end of winter.

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Hi again. I have another question - This one's to do with Qyburn.

Many of us believe he is experimenting and has created a monster, most likely a resurrected Gregor of some kind. However, what I feel is overlooked most of the time in regards to this theory is what his personal intentions are:

1. Why is he creating it?

2. Why is he helping Cersei so rigorously.

He hardly comes off as someone who is loyal. So why did he not jump ship as many of KL did when Cersei was thrown into prison (Taena, Aurane etc)?

Thoughts? Or perhaps a link to somewhere which discusses Qyburn's role in detail?

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1) He's creating it because he's the Westerosi equivalent of a mad scientist. He does it because he can, and he lets nothing so piddling as morality, ethics, etc. get in the way. "It's for SCIENCE," he said, as he stitched a new arm onto the screaming patient...

2) Cersei is the first powerful person he's met who actually wants to associate with him. He's a dechained maester, who stooped to working with one of the nastiest sellsword companies on either side of the ocean. It's clear Tywin didn't give him the time of day. Now Cersei makes him her master of whisperers, and sanctions his experiments, and keeps him in a fresh supply of warm (and then cold) bodies to carry them out. Cersei's his ticket to becoming above the law, able to carry out his all-important experimetns. No one else is going to do that.

That's my take, in any case.

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O-i-L,

This relief nullifies your claim of how innocent she was. A person's death was a source of relief to her!

Really? So, I'm being beaten by my spouse, and it's illegal in my country to divorce my husband. My husband clutches his gut and keels over, the victim of fatal poisoning by person or persons unknown. If I feel any relief that I'm not going to be beaten anymore, I'm definitely guilty of conspiring in his death? Or in any case, it's a mark against my soul (a lack of innocence) that I'm grateful to the universe at large that I'm free now?

That is some harsh shit, man. I mean, talk about hardcore ...

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Guest Other-in-Law

Really? So, I'm being beaten by my spouse, and it's illegal in my country to divorce my husband. My husband clutches his gut and keels over, the victim of fatal poisoning by person or persons unknown. If I feel any relief that I'm not going to be beaten anymore, I'm definitely guilty of conspiring in his death? Or in any case, it's a mark against my soul (a lack of innocence) that I'm grateful to the universe at large that I'm free now?

That is some harsh shit, man. I mean, talk about hardcore ...

I mean innocent in the sense that I think Beric uses when he says Arya and Gendry were no innocents (even though children) if they worked for the Leech Lord. If someone has seen horrible atrocities it's going to entail a loss of innocence, even if the person hasn't done anything wrong. Do you get what I'm trying to say? I might not be clear. I'm thinking that if someone feels "Boy, it sure would be nice if person X were to drop dead soon" that hardly makes them a murderer, but they aren't as innocent as the driven snow anymore, either.

Sometimes innocent is used a synonym for ignorant ("Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm"), only a much more positive spin on a lack of awareness of something. What I meant wrt Margaery is that she's an oblivious baby that the notion of murdering an unfit king would never occur to; she's old enough and sharp enough to know how the world works.

And I don't see it as a mark against someone's soul, loss of innocence is part of growing up. Of course it's terrible that Arya was forced to grow up at such a young age, but it's not her fault that she's been through what she has.

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1. Why is he creating it?

2. Why is he helping Cersei so rigorously.

The dream of every Maester is one of 2 things: 1.To be named an archmaster of the citidel or 2.Become the personal Maester to a large noble house. Qyburn is never going to attain the 1st, and being chainless he is an outsider unable to achieve the 2nd. Consider for a moment that this was a guy running with the Bloody Mummers! That is just how low he had sunk! I can only imagine how pathetic he felt, degraded to the point of working for a scumbag like Vargo Hoat.

When Cersei suddenly gave him access to the Red Keep and it's resources, he must have thought himself in heaven. He becomes a quasi-maester to her, even though Pycelle is available. Honestly for him, its a dream job.

why did he not jump ship as many of KL did when Cersei was thrown into prison (Taena, Aurane etc)?

My guess is that he knows he has nowhere to go. Nobody outside the Red Keep respects him. Considering his position, he may as well just roll the dice and hope for the best. The sad truth of Cersei's situation is that in all the world, the only real friend she has is Qyburn who cannot exist without her. If I were him, I'd be working overtime trying to get her out.

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