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Lady Blackfish

A Thread for Small Questions IV

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The sad truth of Cersei's situation is that in all the world, the only real friend she has is Qyburn who cannot exist without her. If I were him, I'd be working overtime trying to get her out.

There's probably an Abbott-and-Costello (or Thelma and Louise) comedy series in that relationship that we'll probably never get to see.

(She's a psychopathic dictator. He's a depraved necromancer. And they're going on a... ROAD TRIP!)

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Qyburn is Cersei's last hope (and she his). I really could see his the tears in his eyes when he desperately declared that he no idea how to help her. I can see him using the Qyborg to break Cersei free during the trials. It is pretty unlikely that Mace, Kevan, or Jaime would make use of the Qyborg by appointing him to the KG when/if they hear about Arys' death. I even doubt that Qyburn will even talk to anyone but Cersei about the creature. If Pycelle - who, oddly enough, effectively rules the city right now - hears about that, he will have Qyburn executed immediately. And Pycelle is not, if he does not die of old age in the next weeks, falling from power in the near future. He is the one and only member of Cersei's council left who can honestly claim to have acted only in the interest of the Realm and of King Tommen. Both the Lannister and/or the Tyrells will continue to work with him.

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Thanks for the replies. I'm still not seeing reasons as to why he's making it though. If I recall, he was creating it before Cersei was imprisoned, before they know of Arys' death, before Jaime abandons her etc. "Because he can"? I don't buy it. Why would Cersei let him create such a thing unless she planned on using it for purposes other than freeing/fighting for her before she'd be captured :huh:

I suppose they're both mad and that could simply be the reason. Though I'd like to think Mr. Martin put more thought into it than that.

Edit: Actually, Cersei suggested she needed someone who was both powerful/skilled, and 110% obedient too. Was this her reason?

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On UnGregor, does Cersei really have to be defended by the member of the Kingsguard? Or is that her megalomaniacal "I am the Queen!"-ness that makes her think that? Moreover, what the hell is Qyburn going to do with UnGregor otherwise? Ride him, like a giant undead Hodor?

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Why would Cersei let him create such a thing unless she planned on using it for purposes other than freeing/fighting for her before she'd be captured

Cersei nas no idea what Qyburn is doing in regards to UnGregor. Qyburn's work is, in all truth to the word: Unprecidented. There is nobody else in the realm doing what he is doing. And this includes men in the Citadel. She would have no basis of understanding towards his work. She wants Qyburn around because he's incredibly useful. Cersei has at her fingertips a man with a maesters knowledge, but without a maesters ego. She can trust him far more than any other maester due to his situation. Honestly, of all the incredibly stupid choices Cersei makes in AFfC, this one is actualy quite smart. In return for giving him people for his studies (which cost her zero) she recieves excellent counsel while keeping the Grand Maester's nose out of her business.

Qyburn is in a pickle at the end of AFfC. If Pycelle finds out what he is doing, he is going to be in a world of grief, and I'm sure he knows it. I suspect he is cleaning things up in the dungeons and he better remember to wash things down with bleach to destroy any DNA evidence.

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Yeah, Cersei doesn't know what he's up to apart from the fact it's so horrible she doesn't want to know.

He's her Master of Whispers she gives him troublesome people, he gets rid of them, end of story.

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Other-in-law has stated half of the theory about Margaery, namely that she was acting. I believe the 2nd theory though: that she had no idea what was going on. Margaery is a precious asset to House Tyrell, she would never have been made the poisoner for fear she might get caught. After all she's a highborn maid and surely not the kind of assassin Arya is training to be. One slip up by Margaery would have been an utter disaster for House Tyrell, bringing with it her certain execution and a possible war along the Roseroad. Additionally, it makes little sense to bring her into a plot to kill the king for fear she might make the mistake of saying the wrong thing later (she is 16 after all, and Maegor's Holdfast is full of ears). Finally, murder is gruesome business and I really don't think that Olenna Tyrell wanted her sweet granddaughter mixed up in it. So I propose that maid Margaery is truely innocent of the crime, both directly and indirectly.

It is highly unlikely Margaery did not know about the poison. Remember she and Joffrey were drinking from the same cup. I doubt the Tyrells wanted her to poison herself by mistake.

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It is highly unlikely Margaery did not know about the poison. Remember she and Joffrey were drinking from the same cup. I doubt the Tyrells wanted her to poison herself by mistake.

I have the same thing on my mind when I ask this question.

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It is highly unlikely Margaery did not know about the poison. Remember she and Joffrey were drinking from the same cup. I doubt the Tyrells wanted her to poison herself by mistake.

People keep remarking on this but why?

The 2 subjects are mutually exclusive:

--Drinking from the chaliace with Joffery does not depend on knowing the plot--

--Knowing of the plot does not force Margaery to drink from the chaliace--

Margaery is drinking from the wedding cup because that is what is expected of her.

If the plot is indeed a series of these actions--->

1. Littlefinger gets a dose of the strangler smuggled into Sansa's hairnet

2. Ollenna Tyrell palms the dose

3. Ollenna Tyrell passes it to Garlen Tyrell

4. Garlen doses the kings cup after Tyrion becomes the cupbearer

---> then there is no absolute need for Margaery to know anything.

The only real reason that Margaery would be let in on the plot is if she had a specific role to play. As

I read and re-read this chapter I cannot figure out what her role would have been, hence I cannot agree

that she knew of the plot.

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Guest Other-in-Law

4. Garlen doses the kings (smaller) challace after Tyrion becomes the cupbearer

---> then there is no absolute need for Margaery to know anything.

What? You think some smaller chalice was how the poison was delivered? The whole point of the huge ostentatious royal chalice (which, by no coincidence at all, was the Tyrell wedding gift) was that no one else would drink from it by accident, which could be the case with common chalices. That one specifically belongs to the King. And it's not just concern about collateral damage; Joff isn't going to be drinking anything if someone elsechokes to death in front of him.

The only real reason that Margaery would be let in on the plot is if she had a specific role to play.
Her specific role is to not get poisoned. If Garlan drops the poison in, and then by some odd chance Joff offers it to his bride before drinking any himself, she's in danger if she doesn't know. Much easier for her to demur or spill it or say she's not thirsty or whatever than for Garlan to knock it out of her hand. She needs to know, because her life is potentially at risk.

And your premise that she wouldn't be "let in on the plot" if she didn't have a role is silly. She's not some naive child, she's the QoT's carefully groomed granddaughter, trained to survive cutthroat politics with the deadly Lannisters. We've seen her being part of the discussion confirming Joff's monstrosity, we've also seen her personally catching out Cersei in almost admitting that Jaime was Tommen's father. She's a sharp cookie and one of the players of the game.

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It's really fun to see that there are still people around who believe (to a degree) in Margaery's innocence. The girl is a masterful schemer for her age. She was in every plan her grandmother hatched (and even in those she was not particularly happy about - the whole Renly thing, for instance). That she was in the poisoning plot is proved when she does not seem to be unnerved or outright afraid when Sansa tells her and Olenna about Joffrey's true nature. Every girl believing that she was really going to marry this boy would be at least concerned. But Margaery outright does not care about it at all.

Also, it makes no sense to leave the one potential accidental victim besides Joffrey out of the plot. After all, Margaery could for some reason be offered by Joffrey to drink from the chalice before he drank, so Margaery needed to know what was going to happen to arrange an accident which would prevent her from drinking. She could spill some of the wine and stain her clothes which would give her the opportunity to change her dress. If she did not know anything, she would have been in mortal danger.

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O-i-L,

I mean innocent in the sense that I think Beric uses when he says Arya and Gendry were no innocents (even though children) if they worked for the Leech Lord.

Ah, understood. Yes, it did seem a bit strange to me to see you taking such a hard line with the girl, but now I understand. Thanks!

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Her specific role is to not get poisoned. If Garlan drops the poison in, and then by some odd chance Joff offers it to his bride before drinking any himself, she's in danger if she doesn't know. Much easier for her to demur or spill it or say she's not thirsty or whatever than for Garlan to knock it out of her hand. She needs to know, because her life is potentially at risk.

If this is all true, then I'm curious to know why the cup isn't dosed earlier. Why does it happen when it drifts down to Tyrion? The timeline regarding the cup is that it starts at the kings seat. After he becomes angry with Tyrion Joff dumps the wine in the cup over Tyrions head in the area where Tyrion is seated. (page 826) Tyrion then fills it again on his kings command and serves him the contents which Joff gulps (perhaps half) down before leaving the remainder on the table to open the pigeon pie.

The cup then sits alone on the table during the pie opening where it is dosed by parties unknown, but we suspect Garlen. The pie opening is the perfect screen since everyone is watching the birds fly out. The king returns to further torment Tyrion after the pigeon pies are served, drinks from the cup, and dies. (page 828-829)

And you contend that Margaery knew what was going to happen? Do you not think that Garlen thought that the cup being off the main dias wasn't the perfect moment to strike without endangering the girl? Perhaps the cup might drift back to the main table unconsumed, but Garlen can act in any number of ways to prevent Margaery's harm, including telling her.

<Page cites are USA paperbacks, not UK copies.>

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Guest Other-in-Law

If this is all true, then I'm curious to know why the cup isn't dosed earlier. Why does it happen when it drifts down to Tyrion?

Because they want to frame Tyrion. That's what the whole business of importing jousting dwarves at great expense was for: to give Tyrion an obvious motive. And waiting until the cup is in Tyrion's vicinity gives him obvious means. It wouldn't do much good if he can accurately point out that he was never anywhere near Joff before he died.

Perhaps the cup might drift back to the main table unconsumed, but Garlen can act in any number of ways to prevent Margaery's harm, including telling her.

That would require her to be in on the plot, yes? He can't tell her in plain speech that everyone else would understand, it would need to be in code words or secret signals.

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Garlan is only become the main suspect after long debates (with being one of the main forces arguing in favor of Garlan's involvement). The other usual suspects are Olenna herself (problematic because of the height of the chalice) and Margaery. We do know that Margaery is a shrewd little schemer, but all we do know about Garlan is that he is 'the Gallant', one of the finest knights in the Realm with a completely clean reputation.

But the main reason why Garlan would be the perfect man for switching the poison into the chalice is the fact that he sits besides Tyrion. Even if there had been no obvious public quarrel between Joffrey and Tyrion (maybe because Joffrey did not drunk as much as he actually did, or because Tyrion did not let himself be provoked), all the Tyrells needed to do was getting the chalice near Tyrion and Garlan for a brief time. No one would suspect Garlan, but everyone would still suspect Tyrion. It was crucial for the Tyrells to provide Tyrion with the opportunity of actually poisoning the chalice. Had he been away, or always at the far end of the hall with no chance of touching the chalice or the wine, Tyrion would not have been the obvious suspect. People (Cersei) might still have suspected that he might have been behind the assassination, but not the actual poisoner. And that would have motivated the other Lannisters (Tywin, Kevan) to search elsewhere for the killer. And the slightest doubt/suspicion about Tyrell involvement would have completely ruined their plans. Tywin would never have considered marrying Tommen to Joffrey's murderer. He would have kept the Tyrells at bay, waited for the first opportunity, and ruthlessly exterminated them. Joffrey might have been a monster, but he was still a Lannister.

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Something I've been wanting to add to this conversation related to the kings murder:

On other threads I've occasionally read comments asking the question "Why did Littlefinger and the Tyrells require Sansa's hairnet?" Why didn't the poisoner just walk to the wedding feast with a dose of The Strangler in their pocket? The answer I've heard regarding this is...interesting.

The dose of poison in the hairnet is part of a 2nd plot to implicate Tyrion. The hairnet actualy had 2 doses. One to kill the king, and a second as evidence against Tyrion. This part of the plot required that Dontos would meet Sansa in the Godswood after the murder, see that she changes and hides her old garb, and flees with her. One of the Kettleblacks would then go to the Godswood later and "find" Sansa's garb. The hairnet would be sent to Pycelle who would identify that one of the remaining stones in the net was actually a 2nd Strangler and that the smudge in the void is Strangler residue. Then an acusation would be levied at Tyrion that he used his wife to smuggle the poison into the feast and that he killed the king. The 2nd dose would be claimed to have been Tyrions "plan B" if the 1st dose was not drunk.

However, this plot goes arwy because when Sansa stuffs all her things into the bowl of the tree she stops short when she sees the missing stone from her net. She then unexpectedly PUTS IT IN HER POCKET. Later Petyr explains some of the plot but he never realizes that Sansa still has the net. The Kettleblacks look for the net and find Sansa's stuff, but no net is present. When it appears that Tyrion has been implicated anyway, they call of the search for it and the net is forgotten.

So why is this important? Because Sansa is going to re-discover the hairnet in a manner alike to Rose finding the Heart of the Ocean in the film titanic (not a fan of that movie, but the scene is pretty much the same) I have a feeling that Sansa will be the end of Littlefinger in A Dream of Spring. He will continue to teach her the game and she will become an active student, changing as she grows. Then one day, for reasons we do not yet know, she will dose his wine. Again, I do not know why Sansa is going to kill Petyr, I just have an extremely stong gut feeling that she is going to.

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Ah, understood. Yes, it did seem a bit strange to me to see you taking such a hard line with the girl, but now I understand. Thanks!

I guess there's quite a range on the guilt/innocence spectrum. SB seemed to be arguing that Margaery was completely out of the loop on the assassination plot, which would require her to be incredibly naive after participating in a discussion with her grandmother that verified that Joff was a monster.

Knowing her grandmother (who "soon put an end" to her own undesired engagement to a Targaryen) she would have to see that she wasn't going to sit by idly while her protege was placed into the hands of an abuser. Margaery isn't such an innocent as all that, though she wasn't necessarily the physical poisoner, either. If there was the slightest desire on the QoT's part to keep Margaery out of the loop, she would have chased her away from the discussion with Sansa, as the QoT clearly has no qualms about browbeating her relatives. She doesn't, so Marge is in on it. And again, asking Cersei which tourneys Robert ever won shows what a quick mind she has, able to see right to the heart of matters.

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Hi!

So…the mad king Aerys murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark along with several other father/son pairings because they were threatening Rhaegars life/wanted revenge for the abduction of Lynanna.

Ok, the fathers were assumed to be part of the “plot” by their sons so they were killed to.

And then: “King Aerys followed his murders by demanding that Lord Arryn give him the heads of Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark (I: 21),” (from the Citadel FAQ)

Why was not Lord Arryn himself killed with the other fathers as it was his nephew and heir who was part of the original party that showed up at Kings Landing?

And if you start wanting all Starks dead because they are relatives of Lyanna, why not Benjen also?

And by demanding Robert Baratheons head, the king was admitting that this was all about LYANNA and not about some plot to kill Rhaegar, wasn’t he?

Pure speculation, but what did Aerys know about the whole abduction thing? Did he kill his knights just because he was completely freaking mad or did he want to protect Rhaegar actions?

Perhaps because both Targs were convinced it was absolutely necessary to have Lyanna for a more profound reason aside from Rhaegar being infatuated with her or something?

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