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A Thread for Small Questions IV


Lady Blackfish

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If she had a beard, it would have been mentioned. George has made a point of mentioning unusual facial hair on women before.

Why are we wondering as to whether the Queen of Thorns has a beard, though? Weird.

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Why are Stannis and Renly called Lords not Princes prior to Robert's demise?

I'd imagine it's because being Lord of Dragonstone or Storm's End in your own right is more important than being third or fourth in line for the throne with little realistic chance of inheriting.

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He foresaw that the Lannisters would see him as an enemy or obstacle and so he was in danger so long as they held power. Then there was the fact that he believed he'd make a better king. And finally, he figured that he could.

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Why did Renly decided to become king anyway? He clearly didn't believe Joffrey was illegitimate.

He seems to dislike the Lannisters very much; perhaps he could pick up on how miserable they made his beloved brother:

This is from his last scene in the 1st book:

“Then we should pray that Robert does not die.”

“Small chance of that,” said Renly.

“Sometimes the gods are merciful.”

“The Lannisters are not.” Lord Renly turned away and went back across the moat, to the tower where his brother lay dying.

And here he is again, at the rendez-vous with Catelyn Stark;

“My lady, I swear to you, I will see that the Lannisters answer for your husband’s murder,” the king declared. “When I take King’s Landing, I’ll send you Cersei’s head.”

--

Some of Renly’s lords bristled at that, but the king only laughed. “Well said, my lady. There will be time enough for graces when these wars are done. Tell me, when does your son mean to march against Harrenhal?”

Until she knew whether this king was friend or foe, Catelyn was not about to reveal the least part of Robb’s dispositions. “I do not sit on my son’s war councils, my lord.”

“So long as he leaves a few Lannisters for me, I’ll not complain.”

Also, I think Renly would know that Joffrey and Cersei are both despicable, and he might feel that he might do a better job than them (and be more likely to defeat Joffrey than Stannis would have been).

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MM,

He seems to dislike the Lannisters very much; perhaps he could pick up on how miserable they made his beloved brother:

This is from his last scene in the 1st book:

Yeah, I get that he doesn't like Lannisters there, but I think this quote is actually much more about fear of Lannisters, as Ran suggests, than mere dislike.

And here he is again, at the rendez-vous with Catelyn Stark;

I know it's mostly a matter of his posturing, but insofar as it's sincere, it's a part of why in the end I liked Renly so much.

-----------------------------

As for the question why Stannis and Renly were not styled "Prince," I think it has to do with the idea of regime change. In the old days, you had to deal with the "oh-so-superior" Targs with their freaky white eyes and purple hair. We're more like you. Royal, yes, I mean, you still can't so much as touch us without losing a limb, but there's none of this silly nancing about with "Prince" this and "highness" that. We are just lords, thank you very much. Not like those effete snobby Targs. Not like them. So there.

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Yeah, I get that he doesn't like Lannisters there, but I think this quote is actually much more about fear of Lannisters, as Ran suggests, than mere dislike.

Fear and loathing in Westeros? That sounds about right.

Yeah, like MM says -- it is in fact sort of the poster child for "not sound logic."

I'm like 99.9% sure that he's kidding. :laugh:

I know it's mostly a matter of his posturing, but insofar as it's sincere, it's a part of why in the end I liked Renly so much.

Renly was pretty cool, which is probably why he didn't stick around for long. He charmed Brienne, exchange supercilious bon mots with Catelyn Stark, and then grabbed his check and left before things really hit the fan (Winter, zombies, the apocalypse).

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I know this must have been answered a dozen times already, but nevertheless I have a two-part question I'd like to be more certain of the answer:

Part the First: If Harry the Heir were to inherit the Vale, would the ruling house then become House Hardyng, or would Harry take the Arryn name and arms?

Part the Second: Whichever choice Harry makes, or is likely to make, does that represent the rule or an exception to the rule of such things in Westeros?

And as a secondary question: how does this compare with tradition in, say, feudal England?

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Part the First: If Harry the Heir were to inherit the Vale, would the ruling house then become House Hardyng, or would Harry take the Arryn name and arms?

He'd take the Arryn name and arms. LF even says that while they'll never love feeble cowardly Seetrobin, they will love their new young falcon (not their young diamond). It also cements Harry's legitimacy, makes him more accepted, etc.

Part the Second: Whichever choice Harry makes, or is likely to make, does that represent the rule or an exception to the rule of such things in Westeros?

It really seems to be the rule for those who inherit through the female line to take the old family name for continuity's sake. Arwen Oakheart and Anya Waynwood are both ruling ladies whose sons bear their mother's names; Arys Oakheart even thinks "if my father were alive to see me dressed like this" which proves that his mother is ruling in her own right.

Harry's case is different, since he wasn't expected to be the heir until more or less recently, so he was given his father's name all along. But that's like the Tallhart claimant to Hornwood; raised as the second son of Lord Hornwood, it's proposed that he could take his Hornwood mother's name if he should inherit (which was not expected back when he was born since the male Hornwood line was still going strong back then).

And as a secondary question: how does this compare with tradition in, say, feudal England?

They took their father's name in feudal England, afaict. The earldom of Arundel went from the d'Aubigny family to the Fitzalans, inheriting through the female line but not keeping the d'Aubigny name. The Earldom of Pembroke (in Wales, but English) went from the Clares to the Marshals to the De Valences to the Hastings, all descended from or married into the original line by way of heiress.

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On UnGregor, does Cersei really have to be defended by the member of the Kingsguard? Or is that her megalomaniacal "I am the Queen!"-ness that makes her think that? Moreover, what the hell is Qyburn going to do with UnGregor otherwise? Ride him, like a giant undead Hodor?

I suggested the same thing in another thread way back when and I don't think anyone really was sure. I'm willing to believe the whole "Queen must be defended by the Kingsguard", but does it apply to anyone who has ever been queen? Cersei's husband is dead and her son is the King now, with his own queen (or, at least, her son was the king with his own queen, and now her other son is the king and promised to Margaery). Does that still apply to her?

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I would say once a queen, always a queen. She is Queen Mother, and was Queen Regent. Her insistence that there can be only one queen is, of course, a bit of megalomania -- there can be multiple queens, if the king's mother and even grandmother are still alive -- but that she's a queen and a member of the royal family is indisputable.

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Why are Stannis and Renly called Lords not Princes prior to Robert's demise?

Well, princes are the sons of the King (or "son" via marriage), not necessarily "next in line to the throne", right?

Tommen would still be Prince Tommen because his "father" (as far as anyone knows) was the King. But Stannis and Renly, their father was never king.

I dunno, that was always my assumption.

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Cersei is still a queen though. 1) She is the Queen Regent, which makes her the actual ruler of the kingdom; and 2) She is the Queen Dowager, as the widow of the previous king. Margaery is the current wife of a king, which makes her the Queen Consort.

Neither she nor Margaery would be considered the Queen Regnant, as neither of them rule in their own name. But they are both currently queens.

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I would say once a queen, always a queen. She is Queen Mother, and was Queen Regent. Her insistence that there can be only one queen is, of course, a bit of megalomania -- there can be multiple queens, if the king's mother and even grandmother are still alive -- but that she's a queen and a member of the royal family is indisputable.

Oh yeah, absolutely, but my question would be whether the intent of the "Kingsguard must defend the Queen" really means "every single queen who has ever reigned that still lives" rather than "the wife of the current King". It may very well mean that, but it wouldn't shock me if this is a case where Cersei's megalomania could get her into trouble (again).

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Edward IV -- who usurped the throne -- had brothers (George and Richard, who'd eventually be Richard II) who appear to have been styled as princes, at least as far as modern books of genealogy and English history seem to show. So that seems to be an example of an usurper's brothers taking on the royal style.

I think the Kingsguard would be the traditional defenders of all the queens -- indeed, probably all the ladies of the royal family.

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