A Thread for Small Questions IV

[mormont]

Does anyone know how they're filming the HBO series? Are they filming it with POV's? A POV or 2 per episode would be an interesting way to film a series.

IIRC, George was asked about that at OctoCon and indicated that he didn't think a POV structure would work for TV. So, the indications are that it won't be filmed that way.

I think Jon is called "Snow" because Eddard claimed fatherhood. But that does not explain why Mya is called "Stone" when Robert made quite clear that he was the father. Since her mother was no noble (if I remember correctly) she should be either Mya Storm or just Mya.

So far as I know, Robert never officially acknowledged Mya. We know that he and Ned visited her a few times after the birth, but it's not necessarily the case that he 'made it quite clear that he was the father' - these visits may have been quite discreet. Jon Arryn may have acted to keep the whole thing quiet. Certainly, Mya herself seems ignorant of her father: she has vague memories of him, but it's clear she doesn't know who he was. Also, I think it's unlikely that the Redforts would have balked at Mychel marrying Mya had they known she was Robert's daughter, even an illegitimate one.

[zeyik]

This. It's where the bastard is raised.

Mya Stone: Vale mother, Stormlands father, raised in the Vale

Edric Storm: Reach mother, Stormlands father, raised in the Stormlands

Aegor Rivers: Kingsland father, Riverlands mother, raised in the Riverlands

Brynden Rivers: Kingsland father, Riverlands mother, raised in the Riverlands

Obara Sand: Reach mother, Dornish father, raised in Dorne

Those are the only bastards I can think of offhand where the parents were from different regions (in most cases they're probably from the same region, since most people wouldn't travel very far). Tyene Sand's mother was presumably Westerosi, but I don't know her region. I expect Mance Rayder's son will eventually be Aemon Flowers, despite not having any Reach blood at all.

It's also probably a very informal system; since borders have shifted over the years. The Storm King conquered most of the Riverlands a few generations before the Ironborn did, and somehow the Blackwater Bay area bastards got "Waters", despite that not having been a separate kingdom before the Conquest. "Baratheon" may have been the name given to a Targaryen bastard on Dragonstone, so Waters may not have originated in those Narrow Sea isles. Maybe it was a Targaryen innovation post-Conquest, or maybe a survivor from when there were dozens or hundreds of petty kingdoms in Westeros.

According to wiki of ice and fire a child is named snow based on where the child is born. The parents heritage doesn't mean nothing when giving the child the last name.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_North#The_North

so Jon snow had to be born in the north to get the surename Snow.

[jurble]

Well someone needs to fix the wiki then.

[Mad Monkey]

The Wiki of Ice and Fire is loosely based (or perhaps inspired) by the books, but some of it lacks textual citations so it's hard to be completely, 100% sure that it's right about the more esoteric details.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I removed the word born on that page, but no doubt there's plenty of other instances. "Bastards in (region X)are named" is suitably vague, since it's a probably loose tradition rather than hard and fast rules. Jaime thinking about Rennifer Longwaters' story:

"Waters" was a common bastard name around Blackwater Bay, old Longwaters was more like to be descended from some minor household knight than from a princess.

"A common" as he used doesn't sound terribly strict. For Jon himself, Bran thinks:

"...not the bastard who bore the surname Snow, the name that custom decreed be given to all those in the North unlucky enough to be born with no name of their own."

Word order could have been critical there; if "born" had only been written immediately before "the North", it would have clinched it for zeyik's interpretation, but it does not have that construction even though it could have been more succint. As written, it certainly leaves open the possibility that bastards born elsewhere but transported to the North while very young would be Snows.

One thing I'm not totally clear on is the issue of "name days". Generally this is practically used as a synonym for birthdays, a time for celebration and gifts. But are children necessarily named on the same day they were born? I know there was a bit about the wildlings waiting a few years so that the worst infant mortality period passed before naming their kids, but I'm not sure about regular Westerosi.

[Lady Winter Rose]

One thing I'm not totally clear on is the issue of "name days". Generally this is practically used as a synonym for birthdays, a time for celebration and gifts. But are children necessarily named on the same day they were born? I know there was a bit about the wildlings waiting a few years so that the worst infant mortality period passed before naming their kids, but I'm not sure about regular Westerosi.

Name days, hmmm? Maybe Martin borrowed name days form medieval times and don't realized that they have no saints. Or he borrowed that day from Slavic culture just like guest right.

[Ran]

Guest right isn't really just Slavic. It's something you see throughout Indo-European-derived cultures. I think George used "name day" just to make it sound a bit different from "birthday", a bit more archaic.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Guest right isn't really just Slavic. It's something you see throughout Indo-European-derived cultures. I think George used "name day" just to make it sound a bit different from "birthday", a bit more archaic.

You even see it in Buster Keaton movies.

[Ran]

I should correct what I said. It's seen throughout Indo-European derived cultures, but my understanding is that most societies that originate from nomadic origins or particularly from steppe areas end up having something of the sort.

[Gaston de Foix]

Jaime and I talked about it, and we agreed that he was probably pulling it out of his ass... er... stone.

Here's the full quote for context:

This strikes me as nothing more than the old sitcom gag where a character, called upon to provide a false name on the spot, wildly looks around and cobbles together a name based on the first two or three things he sees -- giving rise to the TVTropes certified trope Line of Sight Name, which has given us such legendarily fake-sounding names as "Remington Steele" (a type-writer model and a dimunitive of a football team) and "Troy Bulletinboard" (which is named for a tragic city and an object famous for never being looked at by anyone, ever).

In this case, Ser Osmund, quailing under Lannister's supercilious questioning, tries to give him the brush-off with a series of increasingly terse and disrespectful questions. Jaime gives up his questioning shortly after the "Robert Stone" issue, wisely realizing that, once your suspect starts deliberately spewing obvious lies, you're not getting any more useful information out of him.

I think it more likely that the name of the knight was Sir Robert....Baelish. Apologies if someone has already said this downthread.

[Mad Monkey]

Did I really say that?

EDIT: And who is Robert Baelish again? Was he LF's dad or something?

[Gaston de Foix]

Did I really say that?

EDIT: And who is Robert Baelish again? Was he LF's dad or something?

I assume so. As far as I know Littlefinger's dad has never been given a first name, but a knighthood would not be unexpected.IIRC Littlefinger's dad met Hoster Tully in some skirmish or tourney? Given what has been revealed so far about Kettleblack allegiances, it would be a logical conclusion. Kettleblack's last minute conversion would also be logical, he neraly revealed to Jaime the true nature of his allegiances.

'

[jurble]

Petyr's pretty young, Osfrey is pretty old, it's entirely possible Petyr's father (if he were a knight), knighted the Kettleblacks. But it doesn't make sense why they'd hide the fact, everyone knows the Kettleblacks were from Petyr originally, don't they?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

But it doesn't make sense why they'd hide the fact, everyone knows the Kettleblacks were from Petyr originally, don't they?

I don't think so. Tyrion doesn't seem to be aware of it in A Clash of Kings, Sansa was surprised to learn it when Petyr reveals it, Cersei never mentions the linkage, and Jaime of course has no idea.

Of course, it's a bit much to say that the Kettleblacks are beholden to Littlefinger specifically, since as he notes they tend to be treacherous and he doesn't trust them any farther than he has to.

[Mad Monkey]

I still can't believe that Petyr's father is named Robert. Martin already has three characters with the exact same name; isn't he going to get tired of returning once again to that well?

[jurble]

I still can't believe that Petyr's father is named Robert. Martin already has three characters with the exact same name; isn't he going to get tired of returning once again to that well?

What, it isn't. We're speaking hypothetically here.

[Gaston de Foix]

I still can't believe that Petyr's father is named Robert. Martin already has three characters with the exact same name; isn't he going to get tired of returning once again to that well?

The father is long dead. King Robert Baratheon is medium dead. Robb Stark (and it's Robb not Robert) is relatively recent dead. So I don't know that we are going to have people screaming for Robert, and people going, what, which one?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

So I don't know that we are going to have people screaming for Robert, and people going, what, which one?

If anything, I'd say that there's too many first names that are held by only one person. Offhand, Marwyn is the only maester that shares a first name with anyone (a Belmore) that I can think of.

[Rune Targaryen]

I still can't believe that Petyr's father is named Robert. Martin already has three characters with the exact same name; isn't he going to get tired of returning once again to that well?

Martin said that he learned not to give two characters names with the same first letter, but in this case (aSOFAI) that would be impossible, so he chose to do the realistic thing, just like in real life.

How many people have the same name as your in your work place or something like that?

[Mad Monkey]

A lot. But I'm not talking about real life; I'm talking about a story. You'll notice that even in the books, prominent characters with the same first name don't really go by the same name (ie the King was always called Robert, Lord Robert is usually called Sweetrobin, Robb isn't spelled exactly the same way and neither of the others ever go by "Rob" for short). I really don't think he's going to give yet another character the same name. No, it's not realistic to give unique names to most people, but personally it gets annoying for me when there are too many important characters with the same name. Especially when they're given subtle, ambiguous references.... kind of like this one, actually! I'm not saying it's definitely not possible that LF's father is named Robert, but I don't see how it's reasonable to just assume that he is.