Bakker XI: Spoilers for PoN and TJE

[Old Nan]

3) No joy in the series at all. It is just never ending gloom and doom. Nothing good happens to any of them without it being immediately snatched away.

Now this I don't see at all. This is what I consider the essence of "gritty" fiction like ASoIaF, and PoN is not gritty. If anything, it's "grim-dark," like Warhammer or Caligula or indeed Terry Goodkind. The series is genuinely funny and fun to read even when it's not deliberately impregnated with humor, like one of the better 19th/early 20th century history texts. Bakker does not suck all joy out of you until you're hacking on the grit in your throat the way Martin does–not that this has seemed to hurt Martin!

[Grogsmash]

The series is genuinely funny and fun to read even when it's not deliberately impregnated with humor, like one of the better 19th/early 20th century history texts. Bakker does not suck all joy out of you until you're hacking on the grit in your throat the way Martin does–not that this has seemed to hurt Martin!

Could you name a few of the funny parts of PoN? Not funny as in overthetop rape-alien funny, but actual funny scenes like many of Tyrion's in AGOT.

[Curethan]

Some of Kellhus' and Akka's campfire scenes are gold. And Conphas is funny most of the time.

[koudoulis]

Could you name a few of the funny parts of PoN? Not funny as in overthetop rape-alien funny, but actual funny scenes like many of Tyrion's in AGOT.

maybe he is referring to the scene where xerius gropes his mother's phallus?

about the relatively low sales of the book

i think some people here either underestimate the books or underestimate the readers. the bottom line is that PoN is a remarkable book that not only fulfills the epic scope of a large fantasy series of novels but also tries a few different things along the way. if you like it or not is on each person alone but as a book it deserves a better chance. more people should give it a go. rejecting something beforehand because of philosophical undertones or overt sexual violence seems silly to me.

[Old Nan]

Could you name a few of the funny parts of PoN? Not funny as in overthetop rape-alien funny, but actual funny scenes like many of Tyrion's in AGOT.

I was thinking of the wit of word selection more than the character's humor, really, but just for comparison's sake which scenes of Tyrion's do you think are funny? Just glancing through AGoT I think the only POVs I really thought were funny were Daenerys's and maybe Bran's. Tyrion's just insufferably smug.

[Spring Bass]

I think he's talking about Skin-Spy Simas, the skin-spy with the soul and that. Or was it the other guy that got replaced?

By the way, the whole "skin-spy mandati" thing kind of creeps me out a bit, when I think about it. I remember Esmi thinking that torture tended to arouse skin-spies in TJE, so if you have a skin-spy experiencing the Apocalypse (and particularly the whole "nailing to the wall" bit) every night in dreams . . . :stillsick:

[Grogsmash]

I was thinking of the wit of word selection more than the character's humor, really, but just for comparison's sake which scenes of Tyrion's do you think are funny?

...

Tyrion's just insufferably smug.

Well, that is what I am referring to also. I found Tyrion's scenes with his father funny in that way. The dinner with John and the other knights, where he makes fun of the master at arms on the Wall. Many of his conversations with Bronn.

Most importantly though, at least to me, was how the characters seem to experience triumph, wonder and joy, albeit bloody at times. The birth of dragons and the gaining of the slave army. The joy Tyrion feels when he takes control of Kings Landing.

Dont get me wrong, I enjoyed PoN and have tried to get others to read it. However, I can't say I got much joy and triumph out of it. I think it is a great series as far as original enemies and an incredibly interesting backstory. I just wish he would balance human emotion a bit more. Not everyone has to be written as someone who hates themselves.

Actually, come to think of it, the only characters that don't seem to hate themselves are Kelhus and his brood. The most joy any character has shown is when in TJE

his youngest son slaughters the matron and her servants.

Well, I guess the skin spies show joy as they rape and kill people...

[Mathis Waters]

rejecting something beforehand because of philosophical undertones or overt sexual violence seems silly to me.

Fictional depictions of sexual violence can trigger PTSD, and a lot of people just avoid it for reasons of taste.

I myself hesitated before picking the series up, because so many reviews emphasized the ubiquity of rape. I'm glad I did, because it's quite good, but I wouldn't criticize someone who didn't.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

rejecting something beforehand because of philosophical undertones or overt sexual violence seems silly to me.

I (mostly) liked the Prince of Nothing series, yet I can see how these could be problematic for other readers. You can dismiss it as silly, but you obviously are not one of those off-put readers. Mathias briefly touched on the sexual aspect, so I will talk of the philosophy aspect instead. I would argue that there are not philosophical undertones in Prince of Nothing but rather they are philosophical overtones. Sort of fact of the matter is that not all people enjoy being philosophized to when they read. It rubs some people the wrong way. In-book philosophizing frequently comes off as somewhere between pedantry, condescension, or didacticism. People are right to be leery of such heavy-handed approaches that sometimes can bog down the text. Although I enjoyed the philosophy in PoN, some of my friends disliked it in PoN and despised it in Neuropath. This is not to say that there is no place for philosophy in literature, but that philosophy is often more an unstated subtle implication present in the narrative through the lives of the characters.

[Kalbear]

Erikson's name on a book as a blurb is about as useful to American book sales as mine is. He's not hugely well-known here and he has a fairly divisive following as well.

The American cover has a bunch of shitty random text on it and looks like the Matrix put through a bevel filter.

The first five pages (what most would read in a bookstore) have people eating each other in a castle, then incest rape of a young boy.

This is not what you'd call something that people would immediately be interested in grabbing off the shelves at B&N.

[jurble]

It's not incest rape, the Bardic priest isn't related to the kid at all.

And that random text looks like Mongolian script.

[Kalbear]

I thought the priest was like his uncle or something. It's been a while. I'm not sure child rape is significantly better than incest child rape though, and for those fantasy readers who are looking for something like Tolkien or McCaffery or Martin or Jordan, it's not quite the selling point that he might want it to be.

I'm actually not sure what point it served anyway; a competent editor would have gotten rid of it or at least toned it down.

[Shryke]

Alright, so either the US get the super faded out version of the cover or you just have shitty taste in cover art.

http://www.amazon.ca/Darkness-That-Comes-Before/dp/0143012800/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284494177&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.ca/Prince-Nothing-Book-Warrior-Prophet/dp/0143015346/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c

http://www.amazon.ca/Thousandfold-Thought-R-Scott-Bakker/dp/0143015362/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

All look incredibly.

[jurble]

I thought the priest was like his uncle or something. It's been a while. I'm not sure child rape is significantly better than incest child rape though, and for those fantasy readers who are looking for something like Tolkien or McCaffery or Martin or Jordan, it's not quite the selling point that he might want it to be.

I'm actually not sure what point it served anyway; a competent editor would have gotten rid of it or at least toned it down.

It leads to the line

"So long as there are men, there are crimes" or something like that

and the Dunyain replies

"nope kid, only so long as men are deceived"

The "So long as there are men, there are crimes" line comes up later in TTT where Aurang shouts it. It's the basic premise of Consult ideology - destroy all humans, and you destroy the morality that damns them. While, the Dunyain answer is what Kellhus is using - he's changing the beliefs of the Three Seas, and thus altering the world's objective morality eg. vis a vis Sorcerer damnation.

[Mathis Waters]

All look incredibly.

I wasn't aware my books were watching me, never mind so well.

[Kalbear]

That's what it was used to somewhat emphasize. There was no need for it to be child rape; a very obvious thing to do would be to have the priest eating the other dead people and sobbing about it.

Amusingly in the above context, the Dunyain are basically saying 'it's totally cool that he raped you as long as he didn't think it was bad'. Which...I'm not sure is a big best-seller piece in the US anyway. And if it is, I think it's time to move.

Alright, so either the US get the super faded out version of the cover or you just have shitty taste in cover art.

I think they're fine, if a bit overdone on the drop shadow/bevel crap. But they don't grab me when looking at covers in the new books section. It's just a bunch of words. "The Darkness that Comes Before" isn't a particularly evocative title either, though Prince of Nothing is pretty good and TWP/TTT are well done. So is TJE for that matter.

Neuropath actually evokes a totally different idea in my mind, mostly because of neuromancer, I'd imagine. The 'path' part isn't emphasized as heavily.

[Happy Ent]

It’s a bardic priest. And here’s the scene:

One night the Bard caught the boy. He caressed first his cheek and then his thigh. “Forgive me,” he muttered over and over, but tears fell only from his blind eye. “There are no crimes,” he mumbled afterward, “when no one is left alive.”

I find this extremely well done, and the bard’s rationalisation is of course central to one of the moralities explored in the book.

[Kalbear]

Still doesn't need to be child rape. Still doesn't need to be in the prologue.

And I'm pretty sure that giving the argument that either you can kill everyone who disagrees with your point of view OR allow yourself to accept the fact that there are no crimes because crime is subjective and ultimately it is power over the world that determines right from wrong, therefore child rape can be okay in either situation is the best way to sell a book. People asked why the book didn't sell better or didn't have higher appeal (even in the fantasy group) - that's a pretty good reason.

[Shryke]

Yeah, I don't get the complaint. It's a well done little piece, very low key.

Also, yes, he's a Bardic Priest and not related to him.

I thought the priest was like his uncle or something. It's been a while. I'm not sure child rape is significantly better than incest child rape though, and for those fantasy readers who are looking for something like Tolkien or McCaffery or Martin or Jordan, it's not quite the selling point that he might want it to be.

I'd agree slightly, except for the addition of Martin there, who's fans I very much doubt would have a problem with it. But really, anyone who's put off by a very oblique reference to rape in the prologue (it's about as in your face as the reference to rape in The Name of the Wind) isn't gonna like the book no matter what.

I'm actually not sure what point it served anyway; a competent editor would have gotten rid of it or at least toned it down.

It's a little thematic prologue to the story and also sets the stage for the Dunyain, who are kinda important.

I think they're fine, if a bit overdone on the drop shadow/bevel crap. But they don't grab me when looking at covers in the new books section. It's just a bunch of words. "The Darkness that Comes Before" isn't a particularly evocative title either, though Prince of Nothing is pretty good and TWP/TTT are well done. So is TJE for that matter.

See, this I don't get. While the name is awkward, I agree, the cover is VERY distinctive. It's why I picked up the book. It jumps out at your from the shelf because it's got a glossy, parchmenty look and doesn't look anything like the books around it.

[Shryke]

Still doesn't need to be child rape. Still doesn't need to be in the prologue.

And I'm pretty sure that giving the argument that either you can kill everyone who disagrees with your point of view OR allow yourself to accept the fact that there are no crimes because crime is subjective and ultimately it is power over the world that determines right from wrong, therefore child rape can be okay in either situation is the best way to sell a book. People asked why the book didn't sell better or didn't have higher appeal (even in the fantasy group) - that's a pretty good reason.

This is ridiculous. No one flipping through the prologue in the book store is gonna pick up that idea and turn the book down because of it.

Also, I just can't figure out what kind of reader would be smart enough to pick up on the thrust of that argument but stupid enough to think the book is therefore endorsing child rape.