Sandor and Sansa

[Mad Monkey]

I think that might be a flaw in the characterization of Sandor as this dark, twisted monster. We don't get to SEE him do evil things as often as we do Gregor and Vargo Hoat or even Jaime Lannister. We get to hear about how messed up he is but we get to SEE him saving little girls and even people that he doesn't even really like. Intellectually, I understand that the Hound was a bad guy but it's hard to see him as worse than an antihero since he gets to do his most wicked crimes off-camera and even gets the benefit of having some of his other cruel behavior (like towards Sansa) whitewashed in retrospect.

[Jonias Snow]

I don't think that Sandor and Sansa will really ever cross paths again. If Sandor really is where he appears to be right now, he has no reason to go over to the Vale or to wade into the muck of mainstream Westeros again. He never really belonged there anyway.

That's not to say that I think the Sandor / Sansa interlude is pointless. I'm thinking that eventually Sansa will be able to draw parallels between Sandor's terrifying behavior and Littlefinger's more subtle manipulations, and that might help her gain some insight into what kind of person Littlefinger is (a monster).

I totally disagree with the notion that San/San will not cross paths again because Sandor has no reason to leave the current peaceful existence he finds himself in. When Brother Sandor finds out through the brotherhood grapevine that the Brienne women was searching for Sansa because she apparently escaped K.L. he is outta there and off on the hunt to catch her scent and more than likely he will go after Brienne to join forces.

[So1ar]

that would be interesting to see him meet up with Brienne. Assuming she is still alive.

[fireface]

that would be interesting to see him meet up with Brienne. Assuming she is still alive.

I am secretly hoping that they meet up and he helps her get Sansa.

Except not because that's the horrible horrible stuff of fanfiction.

[trio]

When Brother Sandor finds out through the brotherhood grapevine that the Brienne women was searching for Sansa because she apparently escaped K.L. with her husband.

Fixed that for ya.

Basically yeah, it's like horrible fanfiction.

Noble Sandor casting off the shackles of peace, bounding onto his horse, and roaring off to....Oh I dunno....rescue the fair maiden from....whatever the hell he thinks is happening to her. Which nobody has a clue about. Not Brienne, not the Elder Brother, no-one anywhere.

So....he roars off on his horse shouting hoarsely "I'll save you little bird!" and I guess does a Brienne, and trots around going "Pretty...dark hair....Anyone?? Bueller???"

Even Brienne is searching for two of them, not just one - Pod is hanging around with her for that exact reason. So there's no information anywhere that she's not with her husband this whole time. Possibly across the seas, nobody knows...

So what the hell would Sandor be thinking?? "I've only spoken fifty words to her, and last time I scared her out of her wits, and since then she's been married and has had this whole other life I know nothing about, and she killed Joffrey which is cool, but she apparently did it with the dwarf which is not so cool....and now they're holed up together somewhere...and for all I know she's pregnant already.....maybe they're in the Free Cities......or maybe they're both dead...."

I mean, he may not be the sharpest tool in the box, but why on earth would he think she'd WANT to be rescued by him?? :blink:

So yeah, maybe I'm just to much of a cynic, or too pragmatic or something. But that doesn't seem like a very George way of continuing this story. The Noble Knight Rescuing Fair Helpless Maiden Upon His Shining Steed!

I dunno guys - sometimes it seems to me that people want San/San without thinking about the mechanics of it. About how it would happen in real time. It just would have to be seriously Deux Ex Machina, for Sandor to somehow miraculously come across information that Sansa is in the Vale, sans husband. I'd be rolling my eyes so hard they'd fall out of my head!

[Dark Knight]

on a side note I have to mention that this specific fact - that Sansa escaped with her husband Tyrion - shouldn't stop Sandor from wanting to find her for 2 main reasons:

1. I think Sandor, not being witless, would assume that the merriage was made without Sansa's consent since it's hard to believe a delicate highborn knight and song loving girl will want to merry a deformed dwarf, and more so him being a Lannister.

2. IIRC, Sandor did promise once to Tyrion that he would kill him one day, so the fact that Tyrion is supposedly with Sansa should only add to his motivation to find them. That is, assuming he didn't find that elusive peace with himself...

[Alexia]

Fixed that for ya.

That's not exactly correct. Last Sandor heard was that she fled KL and left Tyrion to die. IIRC, he said something along the lines of, "good for her, the little bird shit on the Imp's head and flew off." Unless Elder Brother is sharing Sansa gossip with him (which I sincerely doubt) Sandor has heard nothing else.

And I never understood why everyone in KL was so stupid as to think that, 1) Tyrion and his forced child bride would collaborate on anything; and, 2) Tyrion would get Sansa out but not himself.

[Mad Monkey]

And I never understood why everyone in KL was so stupid as to think that, 1) Tyrion and his forced child bride would collaborate on anything; and, 2) Tyrion would get Sansa out but not himself.

When Cersei's stormtroopers have their boots on your throat, you'll "believe" anything she tells you.

Unless Elder Brother is sharing Sansa gossip with him (which I sincerely doubt) Sandor has heard nothing else.

That would be an awesome scene for the fifth book; Elder Brother and other monks sitting around in a circle, braiding their tonsures and chatting about all the courtly gossip that they're missing. "Did you see Sansa Stark's new get up? Alayne -- who does she think she's fooling? She dyes her hair and stuffs her bra and thinks that she's a Faceless Man all of a sudden." "Get a load of Cersei -- packing on the pounds, isn't she? Wouldn't be surprised if she had a bun in the oven, Mother bless her heart!" "Tsk tsk!"

[Alexia]

When Cersei's stormtroopers have their boots on your throat, you'll "believe" anything she tells you.

Ser Kevan seemed to believe Tyrion and Sansa worked together. At the same time, he seemed to believe that Tyrion didn't know where Sansa was (?) and he saw her crying at her "wedding." It made no sense. <_<

[Mad Monkey]

Ser Kevan seemed to believe Tyrion and Sansa worked together. At the same time, he seemed to believe that Tyrion didn't know where Sansa was (?) and he saw her crying at her "wedding." It made no sense. <_<

Corollary: When you love House Lannister, you have to "believe" everything that they do. I'm sure that there were people at Enron and Worldcom who were sitting there thinking, "Hey, what the fuck am I doing?" But they benefit from it, their friends benefit from it, and if they cut ties they have to give all that up. It's like joining a cult. I think Tywin's death did break the spell though; without his iron strength, Cersei couldn't project her will as far as he did and people began to look around and wonder why they're doing what they're doing.

I agree with you that the conclusion makes no sense. Sansa and Tyrion barely knew each other. Even if she had been happily married to him (and, you know, wasn't his family's hostage and hadn't just learned about the annihilation of what she thinks was her entire family), what are the odds that Tyrion would trust her right after all that to pull off such an elaborate plan? How would it even work anyway?

The only way it might have worked if Tyrion hadn't been arrested immediately. The Sansa bit still makes no sense, but if no one connected Tyrion to Joffrey's murder he might be able to casually slip out with his wife to claim Winterfell (as was Tywin's plan for them, actually) and then not come back to any family reunions.

[Jonias Snow]

Fixed that for ya.

Basically yeah, it's like horrible fanfiction.

Noble Sandor casting off the shackles of peace, bounding onto his horse, and roaring off to....Oh I dunno....rescue the fair maiden from....whatever the hell he thinks is happening to her. Which nobody has a clue about. Not Brienne, not the Elder Brother, no-one anywhere.

So....he roars off on his horse shouting hoarsely "I'll save you little bird!" and I guess does a Brienne, and trots around going "Pretty...dark hair....Anyone?? Bueller???"

Even Brienne is searching for two of them, not just one - Pod is hanging around with her for that exact reason. So there's no information anywhere that she's not with her husband this whole time. Possibly across the seas, nobody knows...

So what the hell would Sandor be thinking?? "I've only spoken fifty words to her, and last time I scared her out of her wits, and since then she's been married and has had this whole other life I know nothing about, and she killed Joffrey which is cool, but she apparently did it with the dwarf which is not so cool....and now they're holed up together somewhere...and for all I know she's pregnant already.....maybe they're in the Free Cities......or maybe they're both dead...."

I mean, he may not be the sharpest tool in the box, but why on earth would he think she'd WANT to be rescued by him?? :blink:

So yeah, maybe I'm just to much of a cynic, or too pragmatic or something. But that doesn't seem like a very George way of continuing this story. The Noble Knight Rescuing Fair Helpless Maiden Upon His Shining Steed!

I dunno guys - sometimes it seems to me that people want San/San without thinking about the mechanics of it. About how it would happen in real time. It just would have to be seriously Deux Ex Machina, for Sandor to somehow miraculously come across information that Sansa is in the Vale, sans husband. I'd be rolling my eyes so hard they'd fall out of my head!

Sandor to me still has protective feelings for Sansa, he is also a practicalist, when he wanted her to go with him and she refused, he could not drag her act, as he would have been stopped. When he hears eventually (and he will) that Sansa has escaped and the crown is after her and Tyrion, his protective nature for Sansa will goad him into action. He also will be of the opinion that either Tyrion forced or manipulated Sansa into going with him, so his dislike for Tyrion and nature toward Sansa will goad him into action. He is practical and will come to one of two conclusions, either track down Brienne and find out what she knows or head to K.L. and start the search from there.

[trio]

That would make him unbelievably arrogant. All "I know what's best for Sansa". Pfffttt.... That would make me weep. Poor Sansa - all these men knowing what's best for her.

And it would mean we'd have two - TWO!! - tedious "searching for Sansa" storylines continuously. Brienne and Sandor. Oh my God, I don't think I could bear it, guys.....

[Mad Monkey]

That would make him unbelievably arrogant. All "I know what's best for Sansa". Pfffttt.... That would make me weep. Poor Sansa - all these men knowing what's best for her.

To be fair, Sandor isn't exactly the soul of humility. He has too much impotent self-loathing to be arrogant though.

And it would mean we'd have two - TWO!! - tedious "searching for Sansa" storylines continuously. Brienne and Sandor. Oh my God, I don't think I could bear it, guys.....

You have to admit that Sandor's search efforts would be far more entertaining.

Sandor: Where is Sansa Stark?

Witness: What?

Sandor: What country are you from?

Witness: What?

Sandor: "What" ain't no country I ever heard of! They speak the Common Tongue in "What"?!

Witness: What?

Sandor: Common, motherfucker! Do you speak it?!

Witness: Yes!

Sandor: Then you know what I'm saying.

Witness: Yes...

Sandor: Tell me where Sansa Stark is!

Witness: What?

Sandor: Say "what" again. Say "what" again! I dare you! I double-dare you, motherfucker! Say "what" one more goddamn time!

[dolorouseddwasright]

Will Sandor tell Stranger what they call a Quarter-Pounder with cheese in Braavos?

[Mad Monkey]

Will Sandor tell Stranger what they call a Quarter-Pounder with cheese in Braavos?

Valar Burg-hulis?

[emmank]

And it would mean we'd have two - TWO!! - tedious "searching for Sansa" storylines continuously. Brienne and Sandor. Oh my God, I don't think I could bear it, guys.....

I doubt GRRM would take that route. If Sandor shows up again (and I think he will), I think he will just show up in someone's POV chapter, possibly even Sansa's. I don't think we'll have another long tedious search on our hands.

What if the Blackfish is on his way to the Vale? I would like to read that conversation! We already had a Blackfish/Kingslayer tete-a-tete, so I would love to hear what things Brynden might say to Prince Joffrey's former bodyguard, especially if he finds out that he's got a thing for his niece.

Since there was some discussion of Tyrion and Sansa and Sandor's reaction to hearing they were married, I thought I'd mention that I want to know more of that backstory: why exactly does Sandor hate Tyrion so much? Tyrion just seems ok with Sandor, kind of like, "oh another thug that worked for my family, whatever" but Sandor seems to really loathe Tyrion, you know with the wishing Tyrion would be burned alive sentiments and all....

The bottom line is, I'm not sure what the point of GRRM's revealing Sandor halfway through AFFC would be, if he no longer had a use for him. He knows Sandor is popular, that would just be pointless to the plot and mean to the fans to write him in and then be like "oh psych! I know I slyly showed you guys that one of your favorites is alive and all, but I have no plans for him to be in the rest of the story at all. muahahaha." And before you think, "yeah but he killed Ned and Robb!" - That actually served a plot purpose. I don't see what the point would be in bringing Sandor back to life, so to speak, only to have him remain irrelevant to the rest of the series.

[trio]

I assumed he was shown - if he was, of course - just to show how he was finding his redemption. The same way that the Elder Brother found his after fighting for Aerys.

I thought that it was wrapping up his story in a satisfying way. Sandor crashed and burned, and did terrible things (OK, offscreen :P ) and this is the conclusion to his redemption arc. He lives his life in peace, atoning for his crimes.

But if that wierd vague GRRM comment about wrapping up his storyline means that he'll come back? Then fair enough. I just would hope he'd have some purpose other than Sansa. Cos I think the "Knight In Shining Armour" angle is horribly corny and not what I read these books for.

As for his hatred of Tyrion? Well I think it's fairly clear that Tyrion hadn't (up to the Blackwater) done anything to Sandor personally. But it was probably nothing personal - possibly Sandor loathed all deformed people, as they were his mirror.

But then Sandor had a meltdown at the BofB and Tyrion took over and in fairness, was pretty courageous in the face of those flames. That made it personal. And then he ended up with Sansa - presumably bedding her successfully (you know that's what Sandor was picturing) - and then he'd taken both Sandor's reputation and the girl Sandor was obsessed with.

But it's typical of Sandor to be unable to let that venom go. If he ever in the future actually realises that Tyrion a) just did what had to be done at the BofB and b ) the marriage was actually nothing to do with Sandor at all, then I'll realise he's really changed.

[feardeathbywater]

At the end of ASoS we thought we were rid of Sandor and Gregor both. Why would he bother making all those, well, rather obvious allusions in AFfC if not to show that they were still in the game?

[Alexia]

And it would mean we'd have two - TWO!! - tedious "searching for Sansa" storylines continuously. Brienne and Sandor. Oh my God, I don't think I could bear it, guys.....

As much as I like Sandor, I think I'd drown myself. Granted, I think he's smart enough not to conduct a search for someone in hiding the way Brienne did but I'm too traumatized by her character arc to handle another one.

If Sandor comes back on camera, methinks that someone will land in the monastery that will bring him out. I really hope that wouldn't be a Gregor/Sandor smashup, but other possibilities would include a Mad Mouse kidnap of Sansa, or something to do with the impending invasion of the Others.

[winterqueen]

Since there was some discussion of Tyrion and Sansa and Sandor's reaction to hearing they were married, I thought I'd mention that I want to know more of that backstory: why exactly does Sandor hate Tyrion so much? Tyrion just seems ok with Sandor, kind of like, "oh another thug that worked for my family, whatever" but Sandor seems to really loathe Tyrion, you know with

the wishing Tyrion would be burned alive sentiments and all....

enmark- I have often wondered why Sandor hated Tyrion too. I agree, Sandor seemed to hate Tyrion way before the Battle of the Blackwater and the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion. I would love to hear the backstory on those two. I think Sandor and Tyrion are around the same age, so it is possible that they have known each other since birth. If I were to GUESS, I would say Sandor's dislike of Tyrion might come from a few different places. Hear are a few guesses -

Tywin and Cersei borderline hate Tyrion since his birth and the Hound picked up on their dislike.

Tyrion is a total smartass

Sandor hated the way poor Tysha was treated by Lannister and blames Tyrion for her treatment. Tysha could have known Sandor when they were kids......maybe she and her family lived in the village under the Clegane Keep?

Again, this is pure speculation on my part.

On a related note, I wonder how Sandor would react if he knew Littlefinger was holding Sansa captive? Sandor must know (or have a good idea) of LF's betrayal on Ned Stark.