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Bakker XII: Spoilers for PON, TJE, and WLW


Spring Bass

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"Soon" is the third book though. I can see him having fulfilled his purpose for the plot by then, and Bakker using his death for a dramatic end to the trilogy.

I never considered "Saubon" and "Proyas" much of main characters. Despite being prominent in the story, they just never came alive to me as much as the other characters. Saubon a lot more so than Proyas though.

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"Soon" is the third book though. I can see him having fulfilled his purpose for the plot by then, and Bakker using his death for a dramatic end to the trilogy.

Well to be honest, I personally have seen that a lot of the books are about Akka. To me his is the most human and emotionally draining story, the one that pulls on my heart the most. For his story to end at the end of this series I feel wouldn't play well.

His lot is to suffer and suffer always. Not to die but linger on.

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I can't see Akka dying anytime in the future, at least not until Mimara learns sorcery from him (and I think she will). He's the main protagonist of the series so far (I hesitate to call Kellhus a "protagonist"), and we still have to find out a lot about the weirdness of his changing dreams (as well as more about the Ancient North, the Consult, etc).

Esmenet is more tricky. The main reason why I doubt she'll die is because she's the only view point we have on politics back in the Three Seas. Then again, if the White Luck Warrior rebellion succeeds, she's almost certainly dead.

I think one of them will definitely be Sorweel. Everything about him screams "marked man", and I figure he'll probably be dead after doing something to sabotage/kill Kellhus.

I don't think there's a chance in hell that Mimara is going to die, considering the whole "Judging Eye" thing. In fact, I think she might end up becoming the equivalent of Seswatha once the No-God returns (I also think she's going to become a true Shaman-Prophetess, speaking and seeing with the voice and eyes of God, but that's just my wild speculation), and she clearly seemed to be important in TJE.

If the No-God returns in Unholy Consult, Kellhus is a dead man.

Proyas could die, but he might not count as a major character anymore - we didn't get a viewpoint from him in TJE.

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That raises the interesting question of: how does one define the protagonist? Is it the character who gets the most screen time, who has the biggest role in the plot, or most emphasis through the narratives? Akka certainly gets more PoV chapters and such than Kell, but Kell is not only most central to the plot, but nearly every PoV character revolves around him. In my opinion, he's beyond a doubt the protagonist, even if readers don't sympathize with him. Perhaps at this point Akka could even be considered the antagonist, since he's at ends with Kell.

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Imo, the No-God pops up in UC, and then just gets one shot by Kellhus. The third series of books will turn away from the Consult and shit, and just be about how people are now fighting Kellhus' tyranny or something. Maybe the Dunyain leave Ishual to fight Kellhus, but by this point, after like half a century amongst the world, his sorcery is so powerful he's basically invulnerable, and then boom Book 2 of the third Series, Kellhus realizes he's damned himself, and boom No-God.

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What resolution to the series would you all be happy with?

I'm having a very hard time picturing what ending would please me. Pehaps the apocalypse wiping out every current civilization and character, effectively erasing history, sorcery, and technology. A clean slate for the world to gradually be repopulated by humans, who are reduced to mere hunter-gatherer socities by the Apocalypse.

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I would expect Proyas to be dying fairly soon. There's actually been some foreshadowing of it in scenes where he's said to be grayed and old. And Saubon has to be around the same age.

Akka can't go yet. He's too integral to the story line, as is Mimara, I would think. Sorweel strikes me as serving such an important POV on the Great Ordeal, that he couldn't be eliminated anytime soon. And I do believe Kellhus can't read his face anymore. The rite of Yatwer rendered him opaque.

Kayutas is such a nebulous figure, I can't really figure out where Bakker's going with him. He and his siblings, I would think would not be introduced just to be knocked out of the story so quickly, but anything's possible.

Now, Esme may have fulfilled her purpose, but I would hate for her to be eliminated from the story. She's such an important figure to both Akka and Kellhus that I can't imagine where her elimination would leave either one of them. yes, I know Esme has been lost to Akka for some time now. But she looms large in his motivations. She may be able to fulfill this in death, I suppose.

Maithanet is another nebulous figure, like Kayutas only more so. He's a cipher, really. A powerful figure who rose swiftly through the ranks to the utmost power... until his brother comes and takes over. You have to wonder what he really feels about the whole thing. He doesn't read like a real human being. He's not Dunyain totally, so you wouldn't expect him to be so blase. If he were killed off and Esme were left alive, I suppose that would create more of a crisis at the center of the Empire.

Trying to work all of this out gives me a headache.

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Man, I wish I were Dunyain or a Mentat, so I could predict where ASoIaF was going based on my knowledge of GRRM's life, the way his voice sounds in interviews, and the text of the books. It'd be a useful skill. Maybe even all Kellhus would have to do is read AGoT to figure out where the books are going, I dunno. I think knowing a bit about the author would help them run the numbers, though. I imagine, a Dunyain would have to know about an author, or even speak with him for a bit, to predict where their books are going, because the author always has the power to toss in new characters in successive novels, and shit. I mean, I've spent the last 6 years in the probability trance for ASoIaF and while odds are, through sheer probability, I've hit many nails on the head, I don't have the intellect to see any deeper.

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I dunno, neither Dunyain nor Mentats seem very creative. I mean, Kellhus and Moenghus both just re-use Dunyain ideology, instead of trying to think up new stuff. And the nearest think to a creative Mentat I can think of, is that Twisted Mentat Baron Harkonnen had to torture people.

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I had a bizarre dream, while reading through the series (not too surprising given the material) and it involved Kellhus destroying the No-God. The No-God's final words were "I WAS CREATED TO DESTROY HIM" and then i woke up with the distinct feeling that everyone in Earwa was fucked.

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True, the Dunyian and Mentats don't seem too creative, but I think their cold logic would be able to analyze exactly what forms of prose, characterization, and plot would have the greatest appeal to specific cultures, and then design them based upon those variables.

If Kellhus does kill the No-God, what would really occur after? I think of the Dunyain as computers, that unless given specific tasks, simply sit there as machines. Kellhus conquered the holy war in order to reach his father. After that agenda was accomplished, he got a new one of defeating the Consult and the No-God. After that, however, it seems like there would be no purpose for his existence.

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I've always assumed that Kellhus only intends to hold onto power until he defeats the Consult and ensures the prevention of the Second Apocalypse, just as he only needed to manipulate the holy war until he found his father in The Prince of Nothing. He has no interest in civilization. Civilization itself is only a means to an end, to a Dunyain. I imagined that he would just return to live among the other Dunyain once he accomplished the objective of the Great Ordeal.

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I think Kellhus still plans to realize the dream of the Dunyain and become a self moving soul, somehow. I had a great idea (to me anyway) while reading Neuropath a few weeks ago but I got caught up in real life and forgot the main points. I'll have to skim through Neuropath again and see if I can remember.

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I've always assumed that Kellhus only intends to hold onto power until he defeats the Consult and ensures the prevention of the Second Apocalypse, just as he only needed to manipulate the holy war until he found his father in The Prince of Nothing. He has no interest in civilization. Civilization itself is only a means to an end, to a Dunyain. I imagined that he would just return to live among the other Dunyain once he accomplished the objective of the Great Ordeal.

Now that he's been so contaminated by the Outside, however, I think it's a guarantee that the Dunyain would not allow him to coexist in their society again. As you said, civilization is only a tool to him. He has no emotions, no drives, making humanity trivial to him. I figure him either trying to either become a god himself, or to reach a new level of existence, beyond even what the Dunyain imagined, or simply suiciding.

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