Bakker XII: Spoilers for PON, TJE, and WLW

[Tears of Lys]

Now that he's been so contaminated by the Outside, however, I think it's a guarantee that the Dunyain would not allow him to coexist in their society again. As you said, civilization is only a tool to him. He has no emotions, no drives, making humanity trivial to him. I figure him either trying to either become a god himself, or to reach a new level of existence, beyond even what the Dunyain imagined, or simply suiciding.

I don't know that it's as cut and dried as that with regard to humanity being trivial to him. What, then, is the meaning of the whole twig in the sandle, two unequal paths, scene? (See Happy Ent's previous discourses on the subject.)

Reaching a new level of existence/attaining godhead seem most likely to me - if he lives past the final battle (highly unlikely.)

[Curethan]

I think of the Dunyain as computers, that unless given specific tasks, simply sit there as machines. Kellhus conquered the holy war in order to reach his father. After that agenda was accomplished, he got a new one of defeating the Consult and the No-God. After that, however, it seems like there would be no purpose for his existence.

Remembering Kellhus is mad, touched by the outside or both.

Dunyain (or maybe just Anasurimbor Dunyain) are programmed to dominate the outside world. All of Kellhus' skills are designed to enable him to dominate anything that is not a Dunyain who has come before him and conditioned his environment. Therefore he would progress an agenda of improvments in cultural and economic efficiency, seeking the shortest path. Either a golden age would result or he would decide to destroy everything in a fit of logical nihilism.

[Happy Ent]

Kellhus would proceed to turn Eärwa into Sweden, including decomposable furniture industry.

[Curethan]

Kellhus would proceed to turn Eärwa into Sweden, including decomposable furniture industry.

Yeh, logical nihilism. Oicwotudidthere.

[Kalbear]

Kellhus - if TTT is to go on - believes in humanity and the God, and thinks that he is a chosen one. From the prologue to TJE, he is insane at this point. I think his goal is to become a self-moving soul, and the only way he understands to do this is by becoming an actual god.

And there's only been one thing in Earwa that has become a god and walked on the ground - and that's the No-God.

I also think we're going to get a fair amount of time travel in the book.

[Amun]

I just wanted to say that I believe Maithanet is being set up to be a (somewhat) major player. From what I can remember from Esmi's point of view, Kellhus doesn't trust him. This means that she probably doesn't trust him all that much either. This is demonstrated at the very end of the Judging Eye when little Kel tells her Maithanet looks at her funny and she kind of freaks out. (Of course, I think Kel is just trying to sow discord, but her reaction is the point.)

In the "what has come before" section in TJE, there is a basic summary of where Maithanet came from. It reads that Moenghus sent him out to orchestrate a holy war so Kellhus can control it and reach Moe. So, why doesn't Kellhus trust him? What are Maithanet's motivations? I can think of two possible reasons, but I may be wrong.

The one I find less likely involves Maithanet being sympathetic to his father's goals and to Dunyain philosophy in general. In this case, Moenghus has informed Maithanet about Dunyain conceptions of self-moving soul, etc. We know he was trained, but this doesn't necessarily translate into trying to be Dunyain. If this was true, I think Maithanet's piety and beliefs in the gods are a ruse.

But I don't think he could hide this from Kellhus. He is world-born and is not as skillful as a pure-bred Dunyain.

The second, and more credible scenario, is that Maithanet really is a pious man. He was trained by his father, but Moe intentionally provided him with an Inrithi religious teaching as well. Who knows how, since Moe, as a Cishaurim, is supposed to be Fanim.

In this case Maithanet believes in the gods, really believes Kellhus is a prophet/the God, and so on. Except that in TJE, I believe he may have come to doubt Kellhus's divinity. If Maithanet feels that the gods are turning against Kellhus, will he continue to follow him? I think Kellhus doesn't trust Maithanet because Kellhus knows that if the gods make it clear that they no longer favor him, Maithanet will join the Yatwerians or something.

[red snow]

I still like to think that Moenghus was a lot cleverer than Kellhus gave us credit for and a lot of the PON was al orchestrated to bring his son into contention with the more powerful magic. Thinking that's the case then Maithanet is there to help Moenghus achieve his goal which also means he is there to help Kellhus. The only point of contention is whether Kellhus will be want to be manipulated beyond the grave by Moenghus. Maithanet may also be there as a failsafe so that if Kellhus really does go insane then there's maybe someone who could try and stop him (although i don't know how he could). Does Maithanet have any magical powers? I know he can see the "mark" but I've forgotten whether you need to have the mark yourself to do so. One thing is for sure and that's that Maithanet is probably hiding a few tricks up his sleeve and I figure he must be best trained "hybrid" just given his superior age - although Kellhus and Esme's kids may well surpass him before they reach his age.

[Tears of Lys]

Maithanet is another nebulous figure, like Kayutas only more so. He's a cipher, really. A powerful figure who rose swiftly through the ranks to the utmost power... until his brother comes and takes over. You have to wonder what he really feels about the whole thing.

Maithanet has always set off my Spidey senses. (Yes, I'm quoting myself :P)

But that's the fun of the series - you're not sure who to trust or WTF's going on.

[Kalbear]

The board ate my prior post, but to summarize: Maithanet is the strongest believer in Kellhus that exists, and if there was betrayal there Kellhus either wants it there or would have sniffed it out years ago.

Maith is almost certainly dead in WLW due to Esme's paranoia and idiocy. If not then, soon after.

[Ski the Swift]

And there's only been one thing in Earwa that has become a god and walked on the ground - and that's the No-God.

But the No-God isn't a God, so It wouldn't know much. Nor would the Consult.

[Rhadamanth]

I'm thinking the No-God doesn't know what he is because he's unconnected to the universe somehow. Since he's unconnected to the universe ( or at least the part with souls), no other mind can affect his thoughts. This also seems to be the Dunyain ideal, a self moving soul. The problem is that the soul needs others to define itself which is why he asks what he is (not really sure on this point).

Perhaps Kellhus has devised another way to accomplish the same thing. Kellhus notices that all souls are really one soul. This one soul is the God but it sleeps because of the great differences between its parts makes it unable to collect its thoughts, so to speak. In order to remedy this situation, Kellhus must bring all or a great majority of the pieces of the soul (other people) into a similar mode of thought. He notices that religion is one thought that can be counted on to override any others, even logic, so he uses that as his basis. Religion can also create gods and goddesses, I'm thinking they are aspects of some sort of subconscious part of the soul. Anyway, Kellhus subsumes a great religion into his own brand of thought. He claims to be a prophet of the God to convince people to believe in his way of thinking. Somehow, this may be able to transform the Outside enough to allow him to awaken God. Perhaps the God would simply be the most powerful mind that directs the most thoughts, parts of the soul. Kellhus would become the conscious part of God and the rest of the gods and goddesses would either be eliminated or just become some subconscious part.

So what do you think of this theory? Crackpot enough for ya?

[Curethan]

The goals of the dunyain and the consult are reversed. The dunyain seek to co-opt and dominate the environment whereas the consult's agenda is to destroy and replace. The no-God is void filled by self, Kellhus is mutation and change.

Training dunyain requires that they are isolated from any factors that are not directly controlled by their teachers, but their conditioning prepares them to subvert and dominate the darkness that comes before, thus dominating but not removing the world/outside connection. (In so far as Moe & Kellhus' methods reflect the Dunyain goals).

In order to extend his influence across the cultures of the three seas, the thousandfold thought has been devised by Moenghus and co-opted by Kellhus. It recognizes that religon is the cultural touchstone that unites humanity across cultures and the primary thread of the PoN trilogy is how it unites the three seas via a single dominant religon. This is a decisive attempt to position Kellhus to be able to condition/dominate the outside. But Kellhus can't simply use it to change things in an instant, he has to become a part of it in order to define it for his ends. Thus he becomes more than a simple Dunyain, he is now specialized (i.e. mad/touched by the divine).

The consult and their no-God works the other way, seeking to master the enviroment by removing it from the outside, re-engineering the world so that their darkness dominates history, replacing that which has evolved through the long history of non-men, humans and inchies (which is dominated by humans). Moe was unable to follow the TTT down this path (which means his soul would have been forfeit) thus he would have abandonded it and eventually fallen to the Consult's methodology, which is to destroy and replace.

The idea of a conscious (self aware) god translates to creatures with souls via Kellhus' exposition on the nature of souls. Entities like Yatwer seem like more complex/powerful types of ciphrang - embodiments of desires/beliefs - your subconcious god aspect.

[Cantabile]

Did anyone else find themselves somewhat disappointed by how the Tears of God were portrayed as the series progressed? When they were first introduced, I was enamored with the concept; finally a true rock-paper-scissors counter for sorcery, instead of letting it be God-mode as it is in most fantasy novels. Yet as the series unfolds, owners of Chorae still get their asses virtually handed to them by any competent sorcerer. I imagine they're not really even an issue to Kellhus at this point.

[kuenjato]

Just read Gormenghast's review of Disciple of the Dog. He pretty much loved it. Interesting, considering Razorbeef hated it and thought it boring. Has anyone else dove in yet?

[Amun]

We can't know for certain, but I would agree that Maithanet is a big supporter of Kellhus. He genuinely seemed (even if it was due to Moe's manipulation) to be a big believer in the Tusk, and The Holy War.

I don't know. I looked it up and in page 275 of the American paperback edition I own, Esmi thinks to her self "why doesn't Kellhus trust you?" This was in the aftermath of crazy Kel's murder spree of the Yatwerians. I don't remember Kellhus explicitly say this, so maybe it was a conversation "off screen." I'm really not sure. Unless Kellhus is playing Esmi against Maithanet for some unseen reason.

[red snow]

I don't know. I looked it up and in page 275 of the American paperback edition I own, Esmi thinks to her self "why doesn't Kellhus trust you?" This was in the aftermath of crazy Kel's murder spree of the Yatwerians. I don't remember Kellhus explicitly say this, so maybe it was a conversation "off screen." I'm really not sure. Unless Kellhus is playing Esmi against Maithanet for some unseen reason.

Like I said. Maithanet is an agent of Moenghus. Regardless of whether Maithanet is devoted to Kellhus or not, that's always going to create a level of distrust as Kellhus thought Moenghus was wrong. Has it ever been stated whether Kellhus can read Maithanet? If he can't there's your reason he doesn't trust him. I was just thinking if Maithanet was really smart then he would have allowed himself to be "fake-read" into being seen as a devoted half-brother. I wonder if the Dunyain can "fake it" with each other?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Just read Gormenghast's review of Disciple of the Dog. He pretty much loved it. Interesting, considering Razorbeef hated it and thought it boring. Has anyone else dove in yet?

As I mentioned above I liked it, but it pretty much depends on whether you liked Disciple as a character or not. If you like his voice, you will probably enjoy the novel. If you don't, it won't work for you.

[Maithanet]

Did anyone else find themselves somewhat disappointed by how the Tears of God were portrayed as the series progressed? When they were first introduced, I was enamored with the concept; finally a true rock-paper-scissors counter for sorcery, instead of letting it be God-mode as it is in most fantasy novels. Yet as the series unfolds, owners of Chorae still get their asses virtually handed to them by any competent sorcerer. I imagine they're not really even an issue to Kellhus at this point.

Yes I agree. I still think they are a somewhat useful check on the power of sorcerers, but its true that most sorcerers need only respect (rather than fear) the danger of chorae.

The opening battle of TJE certainly demonstrated Kellhus has no fear of chorae. He killed that elite guardsman who was wearing one with a quick teleport-stab-teleport.

If Bakker wanted chorae to be more useful as a counter to sorcery, he shouldn't have introduced the idea that sorcerers can always sense nearby chorae. Because chorae cannot be combined with stealth, they aren't nearly as threatening.

Like I said. Maithanet is an agent of Moenghus. Regardless of whether Maithanet is devoted to Kellhus or not, that's always going to create a level of distrust as Kellhus thought Moenghus was wrong. Has it ever been stated whether Kellhus can read Maithanet? If he can't there's your reason he doesn't trust him. I was just thinking if Maithanet was really smart then he would have allowed himself to be "fake-read" into being seen as a devoted half-brother. I wonder if the Dunyain can "fake it" with each other?

I think it is safe to assume that Maithanet cannot hide things from Kellhus. If he could, it seem very unlikely that Kellhus would have allowed him to survive the intervening years, he is just too dangerous. In addition, Moe said that Maith was a disappointment, capable of inspiring the masses, but far short of a true Dunyain. If he could fool Kellhus, who "is more" than a Dunyain, that would be a truly incredible feat.

I don't know what Maith's agenda is right now. I'm planning a reread of TJE in advance of WLW, and that's one of the things I'm going to look carefully at.

[Happy Ent]

The opening battle of TJE certainly demonstrated Kellhus has no fear of chorae. He killed that elite guardsman who was wearing one with a quick teleport-stab-teleport.

But Kellhus’s hand salinates, and Sorweel could have killed him right there. Kellhus takes a huge risk, the danger from Chorae is very real.

And the Cil-Aujas battle, with Chorae-wearing Bashrag is a close call as well, even though the Glanton gang “good guys” have two very high-level casters. Akka’s Mandate boss lays down the algebra quite nicely in the beginning: the Three Seas can field 5000 chorae-wielders against any of the schools. That’s quite enough, unless they choose to attack in a heavily forested area or inside a building.

———

I’m on my way back from a visit to Aarhus University, having missed Bakker by only a few days. I enjoyed the feeling of walking on conditioned ground.

[Maithanet]

But Kellhus’s hand salinates, and Sorweel could have killed him right there. Kellhus takes a huge risk, the danger from Chorae is very real.

The danger is real, but Kellhus obviously does not fear. It was his intention to expose himself to the danger of Sorweel’s chorae so that he could begin his overall dominance/mindfuck of the boy, which is still playing out. He correctly deduced that Sorweel would be overawed at his presence and not use the chorae to kill him.

One touch from a chorae can kill Kellhus, but he is only exposed to them at his choosing (he can sense them, and if anyone shot one at him he would teleport/whirlwind/something.