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Bakker XII: Spoilers for PON, TJE, and WLW


Spring Bass

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I think it is safe to assume that Maithanet cannot hide things from Kellhus. If he could, it seem very unlikely that Kellhus would have allowed him to survive the intervening years, he is just too dangerous. In addition, Moe said that Maith was a disappointment, capable of inspiring the masses, but far short of a true Dunyain. If he could fool Kellhus, who "is more" than a Dunyain, that would be a truly incredible feat.

Good points. I think Kellhus would have probably killed him or have him under tight control if he couldn't be read. The question is whether Moenghus could lie undetected by Kellhus, in which case Maithanet may not be so much of a disappointment. This is why i like the series; there's so many little "what ifs" that can be thrown around. It's probably why there's still a healthy thread.

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From what I remember, while Chorae protect the wielder themself from sorcery, their immediate surroundings are not protected. So a sorcerer just has to attack the ground underneath the Chorae-holder's feet, and they end up collapsing in the hole, buried by rubble, for example. Akka vs Conphas proved that Chorae aren't all they're cracked up to be, I think.

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Bowmen seem questionable. If it was Chorae sniper rifles I'd say it'd be a bit more fair, but so far all the Chorae bowmen failed pretty miserably as far as I can remember.

Where do you get that notion from? They killed a few Scarlet Schoolmen in TWP, and in only two battles in the entire series were they employed in great numbers. At Shimeh, the Javreh and their Fanim counterparts (I don’t remember their names) were successful in killing many of the opposing sorcerers. They mentioned sorcerers being turned to salt and winking out suddenly from chorae hits. In TJE, the bowmen are less successful, but that is because they were essentially the only line of defense against a far superior foe. In the TTT Appendix they mention one particular battle that demonstrated the failure of chorae alone to protect against sorcerous attacks.

I feel like chorae were a really big deal in PoN, but the world has changed. Kellhus is on a whole new level, where chorae really are more of an inconvience rather than a true threat.

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Where do you get that notion from? They killed a few Scarlet Schoolmen in TWP, and in only two battles in the entire series were they employed in great numbers. At Shimeh, the Javreh and their Fanim counterparts (I don’t remember their names) were successful in killing many of the opposing sorcerers. They mentioned sorcerers being turned to salt and winking out suddenly from chorae hits. In TJE, the bowmen are less successful, but that is because they were essentially the only line of defense against a far superior foe. In the TTT Appendix they mention one particular battle that demonstrated the failure of chorae alone to protect against sorcerous attacks.

I feel like chorae were a really big deal in PoN, but the world has changed. Kellhus is on a whole new level, where chorae really are more of an inconvience rather than a true threat.

That's just Kellhus, though. He's the only sorcerer we know of who can do stuff like that - use two inutterals in his sorcery, and teleport - so I wouldn't go so far as to say that the "world has changed". Your average, everyday sorcerers can still be offed by chorae.

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So a sorcerer just has to attack the ground underneath the Chorae-holder's feet, and they end up collapsing in the hole, buried by rubble, for example.

The Cishaurim use that on the plains of Mengedda; I think the spells are called “scourge” and “flail” or something like that. (At least, that’s what the Scarlet Spires call them.) They are reasonably effective in breaking up a cavalry charge by plowing up the ground. But you can’t just collapse the ground in a hole under somebody—ground is solid.

So against a Chorae bearer who is not walking on hollow ground, under a roof, or among easily flammable materials, you’re pretty helpless. For example, neither Akka nor Incariol are able to blast through solid rock in a battle situation in sufficient volume to make the cave wall come down when facing advancing Sranc and Bashrag.

Ah, found it:

“The scorched turf corresponding to Gotian’s charge doesn’t begin at Saubon’s lines along the ravine, where one might expect, but rather some seventy paces out... I think the Coyauri, as they fled, actually screened the Shrial Knights from the Cishaurim... They were only a hundred or so paces away when the psukari began Scourging them.”

“It was the Scourge they used, then?” Iyokus nodded. “I would say so. And perhaps the Lash, as well.”

“So they were Secondaries or Tertiaries?”

“Without question,” the Master of Spies replied, “perhaps under one or two Primaries... It’s a pity we didn’t have the foresight to post observers among the Norsirai: aside from what you and I witnessed ten years ago, we know next to nothing about their Concerts. And unfortunately no one seems to know just who any of them were—not even the higher ranking Kianene captives.“

Thats all a bunch of Cishaurium can do: scorched turf. Maybe Akka, who can fell trees with the Circle of Norshirau (or whatever it’s called), could blast a respectable ditch in the ground. (Think of what a chainsaw can do to a tree. Then attack the ground with it and see how much damage that does.) But that’s it. On open, solid ground, a Chorae-wearer is pretty well protected.

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That's just Kellhus, though. He's the only sorcerer we know of who can do stuff like that - use two inutterals in his sorcery, and teleport - so I wouldn't go so far as to say that the "world has changed". Your average, everyday sorcerers can still be offed by chorae.

This is true, average sorcerers are just as vulnerable. But Kellhus is more than just the exception to the rule. He leads the largest army seen since the Apocalypse, and is potentially the most powerful sorcerer on the planet. He single-handedly turned the battle of Shimeh, and he's been practicing magic for 20 years since then. He is a force against which nothing we have seen thus far (short of the No-God) is an effective counterweight.

The world has changed.

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I imagine Kellhus has looked into Aporetic sorcery and devised someway to be immune to Chorae, since the bulk of Chorae are in the hands of Sranc and Golgotterath. Surely with his intellect, he can think of a way to nullify a Chorae, though he probably hasn't revealed it yet because 'tis a power he wants in his own hands. Or maybe he hasn't who knows. The Aporos shouldn't be beyond Kellhus intellect, I think, it's just logical flaws in sorcery, he ought to be able to figure those out fairly easily.

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I imagine Kellhus has looked into Aporetic sorcery and devised someway to be immune to Chorae,

But he isn’t. There’s a crust of salt on his hand when he first meets Sorweel, probably from being close to the (at least) two Chorae in the room. He almost dies in that scene.

The Aporos shouldn't be beyond Kellhus intellect, I think, it's just logical flaws in sorcery, he ought to be able to figure those out fairly easily.

I assume he’d turn to salt as soon as he figures it out. Like Monty Python’s killing joke.

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But he isn’t. There’s a crust of salt on his hand when he first meets Sorweel, probably from being close to the (at least) two Chorae in the room. He almost dies in that scene.

I assume he’d turn to salt as soon as he figures it out. Like Monty Python’s killing joke.

In response to the first, just because he wasn't immune in that scene doesn't mean he hasn't figured it out, he just doesn't want to play his hand, it'll be his trump card against the chorae-studded carapace of Tsurumah.

And in response to the second part - lol.

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I imagine Kellhus has looked into Aporetic sorcery and devised someway to be immune to Chorae, since the bulk of Chorae are in the hands of Sranc and Golgotterath. Surely with his intellect, he can think of a way to nullify a Chorae, though he probably hasn't revealed it yet because 'tis a power he wants in his own hands. Or maybe he hasn't who knows. The Aporos shouldn't be beyond Kellhus intellect, I think, it's just logical flaws in sorcery, he ought to be able to figure those out fairly easily.

Of course we have no way of knowing whether Kellhus has looked into Aporetic sorcery or not. Given its esential contradiction to "proper" sorcery, such research might even negate his present sorcerous ability (speculation again of course).

We also do not know whether the bulk of the chorae are in the hands of the Consult or not. The Consult (or its agents) initially distributed them to men, but after every battle many chorae must change hands. (That is whoever possesses the field after a battle collects the trinkets along with all the other spoils). One of the ostensible reasons that Kellhus besieged Sakarpus was that it was home to a chorae "hoard".

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I've been watching more anime lately at the recommendation of my son, and the more I see the more I can envision Prince of Nothing adapted as an anime or manga. As long as it was the right art studio, it'd be mind-bendingly spectacular. And compared to a lot in the genre, Prince of Nothing is actually comparatively normal (can't believe I just said rape-aliens and black sperm is normal), giving it a better chance with that type of audience than with mainstream Americans.

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Aporetic Sorcery is another Non-Men variety. Considering how odd and counter-intuitive Gnostic Sorcery supposedly is, Aporetic sorcery may be even weirder. I think it`s unlikely Kellhus has figured out how to use it (although he might have figured out the basic idea of how a chorae works).

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I've been watching more anime lately at the recommendation of my son, and the more I see the more I can envision Prince of Nothing adapted as an anime or manga. As long as it was the right art studio, it'd be mind-bendingly spectacular. And compared to a lot in the genre, Prince of Nothing is actually comparatively normal (can't believe I just said rape-aliens and black sperm is normal), giving it a better chance with that type of audience than with mainstream Americans.

Not studio ghibli though, haha. Maybe the studio that did Evangelion - that was pretty fucked up (in an awesome way) and deeply concerned with themes of self.

Aporetic Sorcery is another Non-Men variety. Considering how odd and counter-intuitive Gnostic Sorcery supposedly is, Aporetic sorcery may be even weirder. I think it`s unlikely Kellhus has figured out how to use it (although he might have figured out the basic idea of how a chorae works).

Thinking about how the non-men worshiped emptiness. Strikes me that they wouldn't have had to deal with damnation, at least, not in its current forms (until men started dominating the outside paradigms, perhaps). In as much as they had no god/s embodying their precedding darkness as t'were.

So, maybe the womb plague did exactly what it was supposed to after all. I think that aporetic sorcery could only work if there is conflict/contradiction between the way that different types of sorcery work.

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perhaps our thinking of topos are backwards. we think that damnation is the outside, but what if damnation is something that happened in the world, something humans caused because of the way they were treated by the nonmen, if Earwa is as malleable as suggested, damnation may have first been a worldly reality before it became a spiritual punishment. Topos could then be not so much the outside 'leaking' in but a physical manifestation of the state of damnation, a representation of the outside rooted in reality because of the topos not a place where the outside leaks in.

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I've been watching more anime lately at the recommendation of my son, and the more I see the more I can envision Prince of Nothing adapted as an anime or manga. As long as it was the right art studio, it'd be mind-bendingly spectacular. And compared to a lot in the genre, Prince of Nothing is actually comparatively normal (can't believe I just said rape-aliens and black sperm is normal), giving it a better chance with that type of audience than with mainstream Americans.

It could be a western Legend of the overfiend. I think anime would be the most likely way to go with an adaptation as it would probably require multiple films otherwise. I still doubt anyone would try and adapt it though but anime seems more suited. Madhouse are good and they are really up for doing crossover material for western audiences as well. Plus they made Death Note, so they are quite good at handling megalomaniac smart-asses too. Production IG just did Dante's inferno (computer game adaptation) but i don't know if that's any good).

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