Bakker XII: Spoilers for PON, TJE, and WLW

[Curethan]

Yeh, BSC is clearly more self contained. I was just thinking to myself today (snap!) that despite TJE having snappier narrative and more action than PON it wouldn't attract many new readers. "What has come before" bits serve to gloss over important context. Really, TJE should be labelled as book 4.

[Cantabile]

I'm not too sure Bakker should have split his lovechild into trilogies, rather than simply letting it exist as a series. I suppose it doesn't really matter, it's all just titles anyway.

[Paxter]

I'm not too sure Bakker should have split his lovechild into trilogies, rather than simply letting it exist as a series. I suppose it doesn't really matter, it's all just titles anyway.

I'm not sure that the Second Apocalypse novels would have worked as a single series seeing as the books comprise of three quite distinct arcs (which will presumably equate to the three main phases of Kellhus' life). I do see where you're coming from though - three separate trilogies might tempt later readers to start with TJE or the first book in the final trilogy rather than TDTCB.

[TakLoufer]

There's also no reason that the Consult - led by sorcerers - could not have learned how to use the Tekne and then killed the remaining Inchoroi. Or moved on from their primitive knowledge of it and taught those phone service technicians and objectivists how to actually use the stuff.

That being said, I like the Inchies as an enemy, and I'm disappointed that there are so few of them. I don't like them being completely idiotic rape demons, but the notion of an alien being who is damned simply for existing (and fighting against the objective metaphysical reality) is an interesting one. I would have liked the inchoroi to be a bit less...well, tentacle porn demon, and a bit more interesting as a villain. Heck, let them control their creations via lust and base instincts - that's still an interesting conceit. But why do they have to be the ones that want to fuck everything?

At the very least, let them be less idiotic and have plans that make some vague amount of sense.

I like the Inchoroi. In fact, in an odd sort of 'Blue and Orange Morality' way, they're innocent victims.

To quote tvtropes:

The Inchoroi from R.Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse series (more commonly known for the Prince of Nothing Trilogy) qualify for this trope. They are described as being a "Race of Lovers", by which they mean a race "given wholly to their lusts", for whom the vagaries of ejaculation and their lust are king. It was presumably a nasty shock for them when they found themselves stranded on a planet where Old Testament Morality — including damnation — is objectively real, meaning that the entire species is doomed to burn in hellfire for eternity upon death.

As the Inchoroi aren't human, they shouldn't be expected to conform to human-type morality. They are what they are, just as tigers are tigers and snakes are snakes. It's just unfortunate for them that they find themselves on a planet where their minds will be somehow preserved after death, and then tortured for all eternity.

Really, seen in this light their goals are perfectly reasonable--if not their methods.

[Curethan]

Just think of the poor, damned stoat.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Some thoughts about Bakker and Japanese culture :

Have any of you read Berserk? There are many similarities between it and PON. The way religion and ignorance is used to force Tyranny on the masses, the world that constantly changes its rules to reflect Human belief, the Jesus like villain, the protagonist that knows the truth and the old religion that opposes the Tyrant. There is even a plot with a woman that ignited the war between the two main characters. There are also some similar mindfuck scenes, although the Eclipse event in Berserk is probably the most intense thing i will ever read. Finally, both stories are metaphors for the realities of today and not escapism like most other fantasy works.

About Mimara :

I am starting to think that her father is Moe. The first three indications are far fetched:

- She has white skin, and Moe's other child (Maithanet) also looks like his mother (he is dark instead of fair), so i guess that Kellhus took after his own mother (probably another Anasurimbor descendant).

- She is one of the few.

- Esme is the only other woman except Maitha's mother that we know is capable of offering offspring to a Dunyain, so it makes sense Moe would actively try to impregnate someone like her (just like his son did). This could also explain why the shell didn't abort the pregnancy (Moe was a tricky bastard ;)).

What really convinced me though, was the last part of the JE. She demonstrated some extraordinary intuition by studying the tear of God, and by instantly comprehending the fate of the Emwama slaves. The tears of God were made by Nonmen that defected to the Consult, so Nonman blood from her Anasurimbor line would explain that. This would also explain how easily she guessed the relationship between the Nonmen and the Emwama, as well as the impression Nin'janjin (Cleric ;)) made on her. She was also the first to spot the Ghost King.

Her ability to open a gate between the physical world and the Outside also seems very important in a war with a race that tries to completely seal the world. The prophecy about an Anasurimbor returning at the end of the world seemed to describe Kellhus in PON, but i am not so sure now. Now we also have Kellhus kids and Maitha, but i think it's all an attempt to hide her in plain sight. This would also make the fact that Bakker calls her Anasurimbor Mimara in the last few chapters a huge tongue in chick from his part :P.

About Cleric :

He is most certainly Nin'janjin. His ironic speech in front of the statue of Cû’jara-Cinmoi about his judgement, as well as the dialog with the ghost at the end confirmed it for me:

"They-they betrayed-trayed. You betrayed-trayed..."

the above statement seems very self explanatory if Cleric is in fact Nin'janjin. And then:

"Damnation-shun, Cousin-sin. How-How? How-How could-could we-we forget-get?"

"Not I. I have never forgotten..."

Now this is very interesting. We know that Nin'janjin was the Nonman that brought the womb plague to his race from the Inchoroi, but what was his motive? What if, like the Inchoroi themselves, he tried to save his race from eternal damnation? By the end of the book, it's also obvious that he remembers who he is, and he didn't struck me as someone that considers himself a traitor, or has forsaken his race. There was certainly sorrow and regret, even self judgement ("Our pride was too great"), but there was also some of that pride for his race evident at all times.

Anyway, i hope we will see some non erratics in the future (they do exist) as this would answer allot of questions. I also hope that Cleric finds some kind of redemption, because i believe that as long as someone keeps trying, no matter his past, he deserves a second chance.

About Kellhus :

I always hated the bastard, and never really saw a big difference between him and the No God. Mog-Pharau just makes manifest what Kellhus is creating in society already, sterility, a deep slumber as Achamian puts it. His justification seems perfect (survival) and i am sure he believes it too. I am also certain that Hitler believed he was saving the German people as well. There is a reason that this story started with a mirror of the Crusades. The fanatism birthed in that time by the greed of some people, is still alive today and it's still manipulated to control the masses, and rip profits for the ruling castes through war, oppression and the suffering of many. It still defines our reality.

I believe there is never a justification good enough for taking away freedom from man. Even if man destroys himself with that freedom. Kellhus obviously believes otherwise. That's why i really wanted for the Great Ordeal to succeed, so that the reader could see the kind of nightmarish society that would follow. I am certain though that something will go bad, it has been foreshadowed time and again, even by Bakker himself. The most probable scenario though, is that he will become the no God, as was hinted by Achamian's last dream in PON.

Kellhus also makes some important mistakes in JE. He has failed to notice that his son is insane and wants to get rid of him. He sends Mimara to Achamian in order to jump start him to his journey to find the location of the Dunyain (i am sure he sees them as a threat), without realizing that she can become a great weapon against him in Akka's hands (the JE is proof that he is a fraud and i don't think he knows about it). He sends the skin eaters to help Akka, along with an unpredictable erratic. He also fails to predict the manifestation of the will of the oppressed through the White Luck Warrior. This is just another proof that in the end he is just a man, and that he can't calculate all possibilities with all this chaos in the world.

The Dunyain :

Nietzsche would be proud ;). They strive to get rid of their animal instincts, but in the end they make the worst of them the central piece of their existence: The will to dominate, which ironically is a product of ignorance and the fear of the unknown. They also make the presumption that the world is quantifiable by their knowledge and intellect, and when reality contradicts that presumption they close their eyes and pretend it isn't there (like they do with sorcery). In the end, they truly celebrate ignorance, just like the philosopher in Cleric's story described. They represent our best and our worst traits in the extreme, so they are indeed very very dangerous.

Achamian :

Not many people like Akka. He is obviously a very flawed individual. What sets him apart from others, is that he himself knows and accepts this too. Akka represents the opposite of what Kellhus teaches. He takes nothing for granted, he questions everything (and above all himself, the person he is constantly at war with). In the end, he always tries to do the right thing. When he tells to Mimara, that more than vengeance is at stake here, i am sure he truly believes it. That's the common trait of the characters that see Kellhus for what he is (like Sorwa and the Zeum Prince), they don't take anything for granted.

He is of course, manipulated once again by Kellhus, in order to find the location of the Dunyain for him and he has been planning this for the last 20 years. I believe that even his statement that the next time they meet, Akka will kneel before him was just another nudge towards Isual, spoken just to increase Akka's hate and thus motivation. Still with Mimara and Cleric present, i am sure something will happen that he didn't predict or intend.

But what of his dreams? Are they a product of Kellhus hypnotism 20 years ago, or are they an attempt by Seswatha to warn Akka? Some of them even seem to imply that what most mandate school-men dream isn't always what really happened (when Seswatha is absent from the dream of Skafa for example).

That's all for now, this post is already too long as it is :P. I am looking forward to your opinions.

[Slyfinger]

Welcome to the Board. Great first post and as far as length goes, yours was a novella compared to some of the doorstoppers I've seen in this topic alone.

[Happy Ent]

Welcome to the board, Skies. Nice post.

I don’t follow you here:

I believe there is never a justification good enough for taking away freedom from man. Even if man destroys himself with that freedom. Kellhus obviously believes otherwise. That's why i really wanted for the Great Ordeal to succeed, so that the reader could see the kind of nightmarish society that would follow.

This dichotomy is indeed between a free society and an oppressed one, echoing the debates between Settembrini and Naptha in Mann’s Magic Mountain. Where I don’t follow you is that Kellhus’s society represents modernism and freedom, and the reaction against that is represented by the cult of Yatwer, who has built their code of ethic around some kind of perverse romanticisation of the Three Seas caste system.

So as far as I see Kellhus’s society is a step towards freedom. You may of course find that at the end of this modern trajectory lies a nightmarish society of modern Sweden, complete with consensus politics and decomposable furniture.

(I would disagree. I am on the side of Settembrini, Kellhus, and Sweden, and would be happy to engage in discourse. But first we need to agree on who represents what.)

[Tears of Lys]

Yeah, great post! You bring up a lot of interesting points. (How come you haven't posted since joining in '08?)

I would only quibble about two things: The door between the outside and the physical world was not opened by Mimara. That was a Topos created by the suffering. She was able to close the door, though - which is even better, I would think.

At this point I don't think Mimara is a child of Moengus and Esme. When would Moenghus have impregnated her? during her time as a prostitute? Why would he have visited a prostitute? what possible advantage to his plans would it have been?

[SkiesOfAzel]

Welcome to the Board. Great first post and as far as length goes, yours was a novella compared to some of the doorstoppers I've seen in this topic alone.

Lol, thanks, i've noticed this as well, that's why i was trying to keep my post to a reasonable length. Anyway, i am curious, has anyone else proposed that Mimara is the daughter of Moe? Of course i could be completely mistaken and the the prophesy could still be about Kellhus. Celmomas though didn't say that an Anasurimbor will save the world, just that he will be there when it ends. He might simply have wanted to say, "Oh crap, i should have wore a condom" after seeing Kellhus destroying the world through his last vision :P.

[Arthmail]

Its a testament to Bakker's writing skills that he has crafted a series, i like to think of them as four books by now, not three and one; but he's crafted these books were almost no one likes any of the main characters. Those characters that you do like he ends up killing. Like Cnaiur.

But in the first series there are really only secondary characters to like. The main ones are all annoying, like Akka, or fucking implausible (for some) but certainly off-putting, like Khellus.

I think i have heard mention that Bakker is a little confused by his lack of success, perhaps that was Erikson, but if Bakker just created a few characters that people actually liked then he would be a smashing success. Not everyone has to be hated to create something realistic.

[Happy Ent]

How can you not like Akka? Or Esmi? Or Prosha?

And how can you like Cnaiür?

(These aren’t real questions, probably. Let this post merely register my disagreement with your statements.)

[gladius]

I love Cnaiur. He travels the path from ignorance to awareness and then towards enlightenment, while breaking the chains imposed by a barbaric culture. Simply beautiful.

[SkiesOfAzel]

Welcome to the board, Skies. Nice post.

I don’t follow you here:

This dichotomy is indeed between a free society and an oppressed one, echoing the debates between Settembrini and Naptha in Mann’s Magic Mountain. Where I don’t follow you is that Kellhus’s society represents modernism and freedom, and the reaction against that is represented by the cult of Yatwer, who has built their code of ethic around some kind of perverse romanticisation of the Three Seas caste system.

So as far as I see Kellhus’s society is a step towards freedom. You may of course find that at the end of this modern trajectory lies a nightmarish society of modern Sweden, complete with consensus politics and decomposable furniture.

(I would disagree. I am on the side of Settembrini, Kellhus, and Sweden, and would be happy to engage in discourse. But first we need to agree on who represents what.)

Freedom ? Where ? Let's start with some quotes :

"Having suffered this blasphemy, I understand the profundity of your concern. To hear that everything we have endured and cherished these past twenty years of war and revelation has been a lie is outrage enough. But to hear such from a man who not only walked with our Master in the beginning, but taught him as well? I have already ordered the execution of my body-slave, though I mourn him, for he only read the text at my behest. As for myself, I await your summary judgment. I neither beg nor expect your pardon: It is our doom to suffer the consequences of our acts, regardless of the piety of our intentions.

Some pollution begs not the cloth, but the knife; this I accept and understand."

Straight from the prologue. Kellhus is creating a society where there is only one truth, himself. Every doubt or questioning isn't even considered illegal (since the law is based on logic) but a mortal sin. If you aren't even free to think how will you ever be free to act? Kellhus uses religion since it's the easiest way to force people to do exactly what he wants, because whatever that is, it can't be contested by logic. The fact that he is so good at it that hardly anyone notices they are being manipulated, makes this all the more frightening, and a true tribute to Orwell and 1984:).

Zoronga says :

"They said, 'The Aspect-Emperor bears you greetings, Great Satakhan, and asks that you send three emissaries to the Andiamine Heights to respond in kind.'"

"With that, the three men produced razors from their tongues and opened their own throats!" He made a tight, feline swiping motion with his left hand. "They killed themselves... right there before us! My father's surgeons tried to save them, to staunch the blood, but there was nothing to be done. The men died right there"—he looked and gestured to a spot several feet away, as though watching their ghosts—"moaning some kind of crazed hymn, to their last breath, singing..."

"The Aspect-Emperor had sent us three suicides! That was his message to my father. 'Look! Look what I can do! Now tell me, Can you do the same?'"

What does this remind you from Today, Sweden, or oppressed third world countries ruled by religious fanatism and fear?

"Damnation follows not from the bare utterance

of sorcery, for nothing is bare in this world.

No act is so wicked, no abomination is so obscene,

as to lie beyond the salvation of my Name.

—Anasurimbor Kellhus, Novum Arcanum"

Another nice quote from the man himself, completely self explanatory ;).

Through Sorweels eyes:

"Sorweel had known he marched in the company of fanatics, but until now he had never... touched it. The fever of jubilation. The lunacy of eyes that witnessed without seeing. The smell of commitment, absolute and encompassing. The Men of the Circumfix were capable of anything, he realized. They would weary, but they would not pause. They would fear, but they would not flee. Any atrocity, any sacrifice—nothing lay outside the compass of their possibility. They could burn cities, drown sons, slaughter innocents; they could even, as Zsoronga's story about the suicides proved, cut their own throats. Through their faith they had outrun their every scruple, animal or otherwise, and they gloried in the stink of it—in the numbing smell of losing oneself in the mastery of another."

Would you want to live in a society that thinks that way?

Another quote from the same passage :

"Ezsiru, tell me, is it right that the father take the rod to the child?"

A throaty answer. "Yes."

"Is it right that the child take the rod to the father?"

A pause that tugged a pang from the back of Sorweel's throat. "No," Ezsiru said, his voice pitched high through phlegm and sobbing.

This seems innocent enough at first glance. But tell me, were exactly is the modernism in that? Kellhus doesn't just manipulate religion, but every dogma in existence and tradition is another such thing. Why is it right for the father to take the rod to the child? It's a simple question but noone asks it because it has always being so, thus it must be true. This way of thinking suits him, so he encourages it if not outright enforces it.

And now my favorite part of the book:

"I remember... I remember asking a wise man, once... though whether it was last year or a thousand years ago I cannot tell. I asked him, 'Why do Men fear the dark?' I could tell he thought the question wise, though I felt no wisdom in asking it. 'Because darkness,' he told me, 'is ignorance made visible.' 'And do Men despise ignorance?' I asked. 'No,' he said, 'they prize it above all things!— But only so long as it remains invisible.'"

This is the stepping stone Kellhus and every other Tyrant uses. By forcing a dogma, he encourages everyone under his mantle to live without thinking for themselves. This doesn't even need to concern his immediate plans, old superstition for example, doesn't directly help him with his agenda, but it keeps the crowds from questioning so he leaves it unchanged. And when he really wants to impose something, Kellhus, the God said so, so it must be the truth. He is for them, the carpet under which they hides their ignorance, their justification for not taking their life in their hands.

As for the cult of Yatwer :

"Cursed!" Nannaferi cried. "Cursed be he who misleads the blind man on the road!"

Does that seem as anachronism to you, or just the simple truth? Isn't Kellhus in fact misleading most of humanity to think he is God instead of enlightening them with his superior intellect?

Is perverse romanticism the belief that caste nobility builds its wealth by breaking the backs of their "inferiors" or just a simple fact? Is it modernism to assume that just because someone has been birthed a noble, he must live a life of plenty? What about the simple people that have to work for themselves and their masters? What logic justifies that?

And while we are on that subject what about race and gender? By what logic is a woman "inferior" to a man for example? Kellhus himself has admitted during the PON that he doesn't think so. Yet he hasn't lifted a finger to change that situation, but he has revoked the damnation on sorcerers since it suits him. How modern is that?

While the cult of Yatwer might seem anachronistic to you, you have to understand that the cult just represents what simple people think. When simple people are ignorant, their ruler is always at fault. Sweden has progressed because their educational system has been second to none for decades, producing human beings that think for themselves.

Besides, Gods in Bakker's universe are the manifestations of the ruling human beliefs. Thus Yatwer is the physical manifestation of the oppressed, not some symbol that represents archaic values and beliefs. And if the manifestation of the oppressed targets Kellhus, well, you do the math ;).

[SkiesOfAzel]

Yeah, great post! You bring up a lot of interesting points. (How come you haven't posted since joining in '08?)

I would only quibble about two things: The door between the outside and the physical world was not opened by Mimara. That was a Topos created by the suffering. She was able to close the door, though - which is even better, I would think.

At this point I don't think Mimara is a child of Moengus and Esme. When would Moenghus have impregnated her? during her time as a prostitute? Why would he have visited a prostitute? what possible advantage to his plans would it have been?

Thanks :), i registered here to post in a thread about AFFC and then a flame war started, so i decided to pass ;).

As for the door between the physical world and the outside ...

"The Judging Eye has opened.

She feels it leaning through her worldly eyes, pressing forward, throwing off the agony like rotted clothes, snuffing fact from sight, drawing out the sanctity and the sin. With terrible fixation it stares into the oblivion spilling from her palm...

And somehow, impossibly, passes through.

She blinks on the far side of contradiction, her face and shoulders pulled back in a warm wind, a breath, a premonition of summer rain. And she sees it, a point of luminous white, a certainty, shining out from the pit that blackens her grasp. A voice rises, a voice without word or tone, drowsy with compassion, and the light grows and grows, shrinking the abyss to a rind, to the false foil that it is, burning to dust, and the glory, the magnificence, shines forth, radiant, blinding..."

She obviously passes on the other side thanks to her Judging Eye. This is what i meant, i didn't intend to contest what she did with the Ghost King.

As for Moe being Mimara's daddy dearest, i don't have any evidence just a hunch ;). But since you ask, and for the sake of conversation i will say that the only clues i have about how Dunyain think i get through Kellhus actions. He soon tried to find a way to procreate, as did Moe for that matter. Judging from the number of children Kellhus has had despite the miscarriages and the stillborns, i would say they seem to believe the more the merrier :P. Besides, i am sure that the possibility that Kellhus could break would have crossed Moe's mind, and i am sure that using Maitha as a safety lock wasn't going to be very efficient, since Kellhus would see it a mile away. The child of a whore, whose existence he himself would probably not even know would be completely undetectable. There is also this :

"She had prayed for the passing of her fertility during this time, for what the Nansur called meseremta, the "dry season." But Yatwer's Water continued to flow, and she so dreaded coupling with Kellhus that she actively sought out surrogates for him, women of native intellect like herself. But if his divine seed was a burden she could scarce bear, then it broke all the others. Of the seventeen concubines he impregnated, ten died in childbirth, and the others gave birth to more... nameless ones. Thirteen in sum, all drowned in wine."

I would say that statistically, the chances that a Dunyain has to produce a healthy offspring by coupling with a non Dunyain female are very slim. So it stands to reason that he would try it with as many different woman as he could, and the most efficient way, the shortest path if you will :P, to achieve that, was by using whores. Kellhus did the same thing with his concubines.

[Spring Bass]

I don't know where you're getting the supposed unlikeability of Akka, either, Arthmail. As far as human beings go, he's pretty decent - even his deceptions are well-intentioned. Same for Esmenet.

They're not like Serwe, who's an object of pity; Kellhus, who is almost inhuman; Cnaiur, a self-loathing, nearly insane monsster; and Proyas, who is a bigot.

[SkiesOfAzel]

I don't know where you're getting the supposed unlikeability of Akka, either, Arthmail. As far as human beings go, he's pretty decent - even his deceptions are well-intentioned. Same for Esmenet.

They're not like Serwe, who's an object of pity; Kellhus, who is almost inhuman; Cnaiur, a self-loathing, nearly insane monsster; and Proyas, who is a bigot.

Speaking for myself, i like almost every character in the series, because i think they are very well made. It's one thing to like a character though, and quite another to be able to relate to him/her. For the record, i could relate with most characters except Esme ,Kellhus and of course Cleric. Akka and Mimara are by far the easiest to relate to for me.

[jurble]

I saw this thread bumped up and I hoped that Bakker's blog had been updated, but alas. I guess he died.

[Cantabile]

I saw this thread bumped up and I hoped that Bakker's blog had been updated, but alas. I guess he died.

I'm hoping his next blog post will be epic enough to make up for the silence.

Or maybe we just all need to start another "Bakker is Sexist!" debate to get him back on the Internets ;)

[Happy Ent]

What does this remind you from Today, Sweden, or oppressed third world countries ruled by religious fanatism and fear?

Hm… more like police state. That’s pretty close to Sweden. Modernism can’t be achieved without breaking some eggs, a certain fettering of individualism and harmonisation of opinion must be tolerated. But I’m confident that Kellhus’s society is more meritocratic, more bureaucratic than what came before. Without evidence I claim that he’d abolish the caste system if the cults let him. (But that has low priority—he has a war to win.)

As for the cult of Yatwer :

"Cursed!" Nannaferi cried. "Cursed be he who misleads the blind man on the road!"

Does that seem as anachronism to you, or just the simple truth? Isn't Kellhus in fact misleading most of humanity to think he is God instead of enlightening them with his superior intellect?

I have no idea if he misleads humanity. He is the god, after all. But he certainly lies, no question about that. He is an avatar of utilitarianism, after all. That’s quite a modern sentiment.

Is perverse romanticism the belief that caste nobility builds its wealth by breaking the backs of their "inferiors" or just a simple fact?

The societal role of the cult of Yatwer is to stabilise this predicament. They are exactly not calling their followers to revolt against their superiours. Instead, they build a code of ethics where the inferiors take pride in their position. It’s utterly despicable, and one of Bakker’s most interesting inventions. To some extent it fulfils the same role that Christianity has played in ennobling the plight of several other underclasses (Negro slaves in the United States, for example).

Is it modernism to assume that just because someone has been birthed a noble, he must live a life of plenty? What about the simple people that have to work for themselves and their masters? What logic justifies that?

Now I don’t follow. Kellhus is not perpetuating aristocracy system. He has built a society with several other paths to power (a bureaucracy and a religion.)

And while we are on that subject what about race and gender? By what logic is a woman "inferior" to a man for example? Kellhus himself has admitted during the PON that he doesn't think so. Yet he hasn't lifted a finger to change that situation, but he has revoked the damnation on sorcerers since it suits him. How modern is that?

Now you’re just pushing buttons, I think. Race? Where does that even enter into it? And as for gender, Kellhus is a feminist, including an almost farcically didactic speech to Esmi about gender equality. You may not like him, and his reason for emancipating women is entirely ulterior, but he single-handedly rewrote the Tusk and started a School for women.