Bakker XII: Spoilers for PON, TJE, and WLW

[Jora]

I don’t agree. I concede that Bakker has an overarching theme, in the sense that his underlying message is always the same. Most authors, especially of genre fiction, don’t. His point is remarkable in that it is quite different from most people’s, in particular people outside of the hard sciences, and in particular writers. So when you hear him for the first time, you hear only the theme.

But in addition to that, his discourse remains very rich. His reflections about genre or writing or culture are at least as interesting as, say, Mieville or Duncan. Even when you take away the grand theme.

But your mileage may vary. I find Bakker infinitely rewarding and illuminating, both as an author and as a critic.

I agree with you 100%. Well said.

[Caligula_K]

I don’t agree. I concede that Bakker has an overarching theme, in the sense that his underlying message is always the same. Most authors, especially of genre fiction, don’t. His point is remarkable in that it is quite different from most people’s, in particular people outside of the hard sciences, and in particular writers. So when you hear him for the first time, you hear only the theme.

But in addition to that, his discourse remains very rich. His reflections about genre or writing or culture are at least as interesting as, say, Mieville or Duncan. Even when you take away the grand theme.

But your mileage may vary. I find Bakker infinitely rewarding and illuminating, both as an author and as a critic.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big PoN fan, and I definitely find Bakker's ideas interesting. But I'm starting to lose interest in his grand theme because he seems to be becoming less subtle and more repetitive about pitching it. Neuropath was a great twist on the predetermination themes from PoN but, completely failed in execution: Essentially, we got the main character telling everyone he meets what Bakker's point is, over and over, which is not good writing. I guess I've similarly lost patience with his interviews as well, because they tend to be what Neuropath is- far too repetitive and preachy, even if the ideas are still interesting. But if as Cantobile says this interview was geared towards new readers I'm probably being too harsh. I'm just hoping that in White Luck Warrior Bakker will be able to respect that we understand his point and spend more time introducing it into the storyline and characters arcs in more subtle ways.

[Cantabile]

Subtlety is an overrated technique, in my opinion, and detrimental to the purpose of strong themes. If the purpose of an author is to deliver a message to his audience, why opt for subtlety? Not only does less emphasis get placed on it for the reader, but there is also the chance of going unnoticed by many if too subtle. If conveying a specific theme is very important to an author, why not slam dunk it? Subtlety can be effective, and is very useful for when an author wants to get an idea out there without it distracting from what he wants the reader to focus on, be it plot or more major themes, but if the focus is the theme, then by all means put a magnifying glass on the bad boy :P

[pat5150]

About 2/3 into TWLW and it's pretty good!

The Momemn story arc is the most interesting thus far, and a lot of shit happens regarding the Great Ordeal plotlines. The Achamian/Mimara storylines move at a much slower pace, however.

So far, things are slowly building up toward a climax. Which, if it lives up to its potential, could be quite something! :thumbsup:

More later...

Patrick

[kuenjato]

About 2/3 into TWLW and it's pretty good!

The Momemn story arc is the most interesting thus far, and a lot of shit happens regarding the Great Ordeal plotlines. The Achamian/Mimara storylines move at a much slower pace, however.

So far, things are slowly building up toward a climax. Which, if it lives up to its potential, could be quite something! :thumbsup:

More later...

Patrick

Yer killing me, Pat.

How are your opinions of the various arcs shaping up in correlation / contrast to TJE? Achamian's arc was the most interesting, IMO, for that book, and Momemn not as interesting.

[pat5150]

Hard to answer without spoilers. . .

For my money, Achamian and Mimara's storylines were the most interesting ones in TJE. Not as great in TWLW. After some fascinating revelations, their plotlines have slowed to a crawl. It's a travelogue, with the party limping toward Sauglish as they deal with death and starvation. Insofar as I've read, the "Let's get our asses to Sauglish" storylines are the only that haven't picked up the pace yet. . .

I wasn't too fond of Sorweel in TJE. But he more or less stole the show thus far in TWLW. He now takes center stage in every Great Ordeal portion of the book. Bakker has a lot in store for him and some revelations are very cool! The Proyas plotline appears to be there just to give us the POV of someone trying to analyze Kellhus. The Great Ordeal's storylines started slow as well, but they are now moving along at a crisper pace.

In Momemn, it didn't take long for the Empire to start to crumble. What little faith people had in the Empress is quickly evaporating, and Esmenet is already trying to do some damage control. With the insurrection in Shigek and all the rumors flying, it's all she can do to hold on to the throne. By far the most interesting storylines of TWLW up until this point.

More soon. . .

Patrick

[Cantabile]

I'm a bit disappointed that the Achamian chapters are still a travelogue; it almost feels as though Bakker wanted the climax of the journey saved for the third book, and meanwhile it's just filler. I wish that the "get our asses to Sauglish" storyline concluded in the first book, so that the remaining pages devoted to Achamian could be filled with kickass plot-moving content rather than world-exploring journeying.

But plenty of people loved Akka's storyline in TJE, so I might be alone in my criticism :P

[Old Nan]

I would never reveal anything, that goes without saying.

:unsure:

[Werthead]

Bakker is mopey that his books haven't made him fabulously wealthy. It's a good thought experiment - Bakker and Abercrombie started about the same time, yet Bakker is unknown and Joe's Best Served Cold got a fairly prominent position at my local Walden Books when it came out. On the e-fame level, Bakker and Abercrombie seem about the same, but irl, Abercrombie seems to have won in sales.

Abercrombie is 'dark' but also has a sense of humour. His books are funny. I don't recall anything in Second Apocalypse that was (intentionally) funny. Abercrombie also has stronger female characters, and an apparently simplistic style that hides a twisting plot and startling plot revelations, which is more accessible than Bakker's more up-front philosophising.

I'd be worried as well if I were in his position. His fantasy books are at least as good as Abercrombie's (superior IMO) but he seems to have failed miserably on the mainstream front. I guess all those criticisms of people on this board and others as well as the ones mentioned by Bakker himself have some truth to them. Something is stopping him from gaining wider popularity. The question is what is it and will Bakker be willing or able to change?

If he wants to be more popular he needs to be more accessible, he probably needs to lay off the cocks, black seed, "I HAVE RAPED THOUSANDS!" and so on and he needs to appeal to female readers more (the number of female readers on this board alone who started off really liking him and now despise him is pretty telling). Without those things, he'll remain somewhat niche. Also, on their respective blogs Joe makes people laugh, chews the fat about the latest computer games and movies and comes over as a regular guy. Bakker is actually a nice guy who's easy to talk to who's pretty geeky, but he does tend to pontificate on his blog, often intelligently and about interesting subjects, but it's certainly more remote and less inclusive.

All of that said, Bakker's book sales, especially in the UK, are actually reasonable. Orbit seem to be pretty happy with him. He's not Abercrombie or Rothfuss or anything on that level, but he does enough to stay in print and for Orbit to keep publishing him. I imagine that his US sales, with a lack of paperbacks (or did that get sorted out in the end, I forget?) and coming from a small publisher, are much less impressive.

Effectively, Bakker wants to be popular but also not sell out. I get the impression that's why he regards Martin and Erikson with so much interest and appreciation, as they seem to have cracked that problem and achieved success without compromising their books (Erikson only recently, it has to be said).

[kcf]

I'm sure it doesn't help that his fantasy books here in the US are published by Overlook. Overlook is not really a genre publisher and is quite a bit smaller than many of the fantasy imprints. They aren't as savy about marketing to the SFF crowd. I think Bakker's popularity would be much better served if he was published in the US by a Tor, Del Rey, or other similar.

Combine this with his 'ivory tower' intellectual speak, and he is not a very accessible author.

Though I find it a bit odd that he's whining about not being able to write full-time - not very many SFF authors have that privilege.

[Old Nan]

I don't recall anything in Second Apocalypse that was (intentionally) funny.

It's been awhile since I last read them, but I remember a lot of laughs in the series. It's grimdark.

[Cantabile]

There's certainly dark humor, but not much the masses would be laughing at. Martin is very skilled at blending humor with his dark atmosphere, but I think that form of humor would be too dissonant with the omnipresent darkness of Bakker's works.

Bakker is an incredibly intelligent man, and a superb author, but there simply isn't a large enough fanbase for his style. Works that are dark can succeed; works that are philosophical can succeed; works that are fantasy can succeed. But all three together?

[Cuchulain]

I just read on Wert's blog that Bakker's Second Apocalypse series may be delayed due to financial problems. I was wondering, though, if anyone can tell me how many more books are planned in the series after The Unholy Consult.

[Werthead]

I just read on Wert's blog that Bakker's Second Apocalypse series may be delayed due to financial problems. I was wondering, though, if anyone can tell me how many more books are planned in the series after The Unholy Consult.

My understanding is that the final series is still planned to be a duology.

[pat5150]

Well, The Aspect-Emperor was supposed to be a duology, so you never know...

Patrick

[Cantabile]

I'm guessing that the final series will be a trilogy, as it'd be nice and neat to have three trilogies. 3-3-2 just doesn't have the same coolness factor going for it ;)

[pat5150]

I'm sure it doesn't help that his fantasy books here in the US are published by Overlook. Overlook is not really a genre publisher and is quite a bit smaller than many of the fantasy imprints. They aren't as savy about marketing to the SFF crowd. I think Bakker's popularity would be much better served if he was published in the US by a Tor, Del Rey, or other similar.

I agree.

But it's not just a question of lack of marketing in the USA. As a small press, Overlook doesn't get as wide a distribution as the genre powerhouses, which means that Bakker's books can't always be found in every bookstore, even the big ones. Add to that the fact that there are no mass market paperbacks for Prince of Nothing, and it sort of makes things difficult for Bakker to reach a wider audience in the US.

Another factor that doesn't help is that he's published by Penguin in Canada, a publisher notorious for not pushing their midlist authors a whole lot.

Though he'll never be mainstream, R. Scott Bakker's novels have a certain appeal that will scratch the itch of "older" and more jaded SFF readers who are looking for something different. God knows he's no Salvatore or Sanderson, writers who will appeal to a younger crowd in addition to adult readers. But there is a sizable chunk of the SFF readership that would possibly enjoy PoN. It's just a question of getting their books into their hands.

And that's where both Penguin and Overlook have problems... :worried:

It looks as though Orbit has done a good job to market Bakker in the UK. It would be nice to see how many more units he would move if he had that kind of support on this side of the pond...

Patrick

[Cantabile]

I've only seen trade paperback copies in bookstores. Mass-market paperbacks of the series don't exist, pretty sure.

[Cantabile]

Those ones are just paperback versions.

Trade paperback = Usually same size, page format, everything as the hardcover, minus the actual hardcover.

Mass-market paperback = Much smaller, with all illustrations etc. kept to a bare minimum. Quality of paper is a lot lower to decrease price, making the mass-market paperbacks cheap.

In SoIF, for example, the trade paperbacks are the big editions that are the same as the hardcover, and the mass-market paperbacks are the tiny and super thick ones that are only like 6$

[pat5150]

The Overlook paperback editions are not true mass market paperbacks. They're a bit bigger, and 15$ to boot.

Mass market paperbacks of Bakker's novels are only available in Canada and the UK...

Patrick