Bakker XII: Spoilers for PON, TJE, and WLW

[Borque]

I have similar trouble with "Momemn". Doesn't really roll off the tongue.

And "Aurax" sounds like some kind of detergent.

[Kalbear]

I remove those tough black semen and night soil stains from my samite robes with Aurax. When your clothes don't just need cleaning, or even deep-down cleaning, but deep down orifices-that-you-didn't-have cleaning via limbs and tentacles that shouldn't exist cleaning, choose Aurax!

[Shryke]

See, Aurax is a gentlemanthing. It cleans up after itself.

[Cantabile]

I usually pronounce the "Au-" in "Aurax" and "Aurang" as "Arrrr".

The one that actually bugs me the most, though, is in one of the simple names: "Kellhus". The "h" in there throws me off, so that it's "Kell-Hus" instead of "Kell-us". It's like that annoying stop in that "Don't stop. Thinking about Tomorrow" song.

I've always said it as "Kell-us" I figure it doesn't matter too much when saying names in your head wrong, since after reading them a few hundred times the 'correct' versions sound wrong by themselves :P

[Curethan]

This assertion that the names and their pronunciations relate to the inaccesability seems quite the nonsense to me. Understandable how it can be percieved as such by those how dislike that aspect of a book they enjoy but unlikely to be a source of discouragement to the casual reader.

The standard SFF reader frequently encounters words they are unfamiliar with in the spoken mileu, the brain just deals with it. Listening to GRRM in the recent teaser I realised I had been mispronouncing at least half of the names, reversing constanants and missing syables - but this only becomes a source of irritation after you begin to correct yourself. Thus, while I agree that the names in AE can be irritating to a portition of well read fans, I do not believe them to be an impediment to the appeal of the series, indeed, I think it likely that they primarily present a subconious incentive to those who enjoy worldbuilding.

The naming conventions in AE are admittedly difficult to come to grips with, but they are also an indication that the author has created a level of depth in his world-building that promises rewards for those who wish to explore it. As astutely noted, major character's and especially those requiring emotion inflection or resonance in the dialogues and descriptive scenes have nicknames or readily pronouncable names or titles or have simply become acceptable by repetion. Recall the names from the Silmarillion as an example.

I think the cause of AE's limited sales in the face of it's critical praise is related promotional problems. The lack a presence on shelves, mass market printings and most importantly the fact that it is hard to recommend to the casual reader. Many of my freinds and family are casual readers of fantasy, yet I do not believe they would enjoy the book. Reading something on recommendation ensures that the reader will be more 'suspicious'? or resistant to engage with the book than if they believe they have chosen it for themselves, there is a much higher chance of abandoning the book, especially one with such a slow start and a prominent philosphical bent. One of my friends has read it, he found it slow but enjoyed it when they really started cutting loose on the violence in TTT, it seems that most of the worldbuilding and philosphical content was lost on him and he is happier sticking with stuff like Butcher, Hobb and Sanderson. I believe I would have gotten a similar reaction from him had the book in question been Crime and Punishment...

The fantasy genre thrives of word of mouth recommendation and I think this is where Bakker loses. I'm interested to hear how others feel about recommending the series and experiences in that regard.

[pat5150]

Hmmm, wait till you discover who Cleric really is. . . :pimp:

Patrick

[gladius]

I don't recommend books, mainly because i read for different reasons than most other people.

But PON is my favorite series and TTT my favorite fantasy book and i say so, if somebody asks me.

[Curethan]

I don't recommend books, mainly because i read for different reasons than most other people.

But PON is my favorite series and TTT my favorite fantasy book and i say so, if somebody asks me.

Why do you read then, and how do you think that differs from why other people you know read?

Hmmm, wait till you discover who Cleric really is. . . :pimp:

Patrick

Lamest class from D&D?

[Spastic Plastic]

Hmmm, wait till you discover who Cleric really is. . . :pimp:

Patrick

So, who is Cleric then? Is he a Nonman we've heard of before?

I don't know when I'll read WLW or if I will bother to read it at all, but that is a question that has nagged at me a bit. You can always put it in spoiler tags, or if you're extra cautious, PM me the answer.

[pat5150]

So, who is Cleric then? Is he a Nonman we've heard of before?

I don't know when I'll read WLW or if I will bother to read it at all, but that is a question that has nagged at me a bit. You can always put it in spoiler tags, or if you're extra cautious, PM me the answer.

Sorry...

Scott trusts me with these copy-edit files, so I'm sworn to secrecy... No spoilers.

But it's always nice to mess with your minds! :P

Patrick

[Spring Bass]

Eh, screw you then. We all know he's Nin'jan'jin. ;)

[lokisnow]

Shaeönanra, Grandmaster of the School of Mangaecca, would be the obvious exception.

But then again, he got the - relatively - simple name Shauriatas after hanging out with the bad guys for a while. You might be on to something here.

Shauriatas is just nasty too many syllables to one name. ugh that is actually painful to my eyes as a name. As for Shaeonanra (is that how it really is spelled, I remember it as a Shaeonarra for some reason), I don't think he's actually shown up in the text of any of the four books and is strictly in the glossary/appendix or mentioned by RSB on the three seas board. So in other words about five hundred people are aware of him, so he doesn't count, yet. :-p Sort of like the Blood Raven=Cold Hands most readers will have no clue where that comes from.

That's not true; I can reproduce those funky characters with a German keyboard just fine. After all, German has its share of fünký chäräctêrs. :D

I can too, actually, i use those characters often enough that my keyboard is set to US International and my reflexes have changed to add a 'space bar' hit after an apostrophe or quotation mark so they don't go causing umlauts and accents and that wierd french C with a penis letter.

and fugitives murmured tales of woe,

of greater cities lost to Mog-Pharau ...

it's pronounced with an O like in woe? that's gonna bug the hell out of me. obnoxious spellings, ugh. And seeing that couplet makes me think of:

Never was a tale of more woe

than this of Juliet, and her Romeo.

This assertion that the names and their pronunciations relate to the inaccesability seems quite the nonsense to me. Understandable how it can be percieved as such by those how dislike that aspect of a book they enjoy but unlikely to be a source of discouragement to the casual reader. ...

The lack a presence on shelves, mass market printings and most importantly the fact that it is hard to recommend to the casual reader. Many of my freinds and family are casual readers of fantasy, yet I do not believe they would enjoy the book.

I agree with you on the recommendation front, but I do think the names are more significant than you're allowing. I like the depth and quality of the naming system--now. it took me about a year after reading the first series while following the bakker threads on this board until I understood that it actually WAS a Silmarillion level depth of unique naming conventions and not just random accretions of letters into strange sounding word-globs Bakker called names. Because that's what I thought the names in the book were for a few years, a ridiculous literary conceit that just makes a book harder to read, like Cormac McCarthy's refusal to use quotation marks.

Names do make things inaccessible, but not so much as the philosophy or mysogynistic style do. But combine incomprehensible seventeen syllable monstrosities like Shauriatasauska with dense philosophy and grim tone makes for a hard slog. That's part of what makes the books so hard to recommend. They're not easy reads. It's like recommending films. You can recommend the Godfather to everyone, but you might be a bit more selective in recommending them David Cronenberg (like a History of Violence).

Hey, Cronenberg is Canadian too, maybe overlook should consult with his handlers on how to market those difficult sorts.

Hmmm, wait till you discover who Cleric really is. . . :pimp:

Woo, I'm more excited that we actually find out who he is than I am finding out who in particular he is. (same applies to cold hands, I'd be more excited if I just knew that his identity would be revealed than I would be by finding out his identity early.

Eh, screw you then. We all know he's Nin'jan'jin. ;)

or he's Nin's son, I quite like that theory.

[Cantabile]

Eh, screw you then. We all know he's Nin'jan'jin. ;)

Every time I read that name I get a mental image of a ninja. Wonder if that's what Scott intended. Clue that Kellhus is going to be assassinated by ninjas, which then take over the religion, installing a dictatorship of ninja-worship?

Hmm...

[Curethan]

I agree with you on the recommendation front, but I do think the names are more significant than you're allowing. I like the depth and quality of the naming system--now. it took me about a year after reading the first series while following the bakker threads on this board until I understood that it actually WAS a Silmarillion level depth of unique naming conventions and not just random accretions of letters into strange sounding word-globs Bakker called names. Because that's what I thought the names in the book were for a few years, a ridiculous literary conceit that just makes a book harder to read, like Cormac McCarthy's refusal to use quotation marks.

Names do make things inaccessible, but not so much as the philosophy or mysogynistic style do. But combine incomprehensible seventeen syllable monstrosities like Shauriatasauska with dense philosophy and grim tone makes for a hard slog. That's part of what makes the books so hard to recommend. They're not easy reads. It's like recommending films. You can recommend the Godfather to everyone, but you might be a bit more selective in recommending them David Cronenberg (like a History of Violence).

Idk, it's difficult to quantify the impact of names on less prose-critical readers. For me and my afore mentioned casual reader friend it was a curio that bore comment if mentioned, but held negligible effect upon the way the rest of the narrative was recieved until one starts to look more deeply. I suspect you have a deeper than usual interest in oral pronunciation and that was enough to disrupt the narrative for you. I remember reading three books in the Corum series when halfway through the final volume I realized I had been internaly pronouncing a major character's name incorrectly due to a dyslexic style parsing error. Every time encountered that name thereafter I was jarred from the narrative by my auto correction - very annoying and, I suspect, similar to what you might have experienced with this series.

Perhaps the naming convetions are indicative of a problem with the appeal of the stylized prose. Much of the broadly appealing fantasy works today seem to deliberatly aim for a contempory feel, eschewing the broad metaphors, thematic wordforms, shaped cadence and other stylizations employed by writers like Poe, Tolkien, Twain and the like. Author like Weeks and Sanderson exemplify this, for me, I get a cinematic action feel but completely lose the mythic flavour. There are no difficult or absurdly jarring names there. In fact I find it difficult to remember them for this reason and they lack lasting impact.

At any rate, it is an interesting subject that certainly has an impact - but I don't think it is an identifiable way of broadening the appeal without completely rewriting the narrative and destroying the attendant conciets ;)

[Spastic Plastic]

it's pronounced with an O like in woe? that's gonna bug the hell out of me. obnoxious spellings, ugh. And seeing that couplet makes me think of:

Never was a tale of more woe

than this of Juliet, and her Romeo.

Mog-Pharau and Juliet, a a timeless story of romantic love. I watched it on Broadway last year.

[jurble]

Never was a tale of more woe

than this of Juliet, and her Mog-Pharau.

Hmm.

Hmm.

[Cantabile]

Bakker would make "Romeo and Juliet" into what Avenue Q made Sesame Street.

Yes please.

[Kalbear]

Bakker would make "Romeo and Juliet" into what Avenue Q made Sesame Street.

Yes please.

Err, Bakker would make Romeo and Juliet into what Legend of the Overfiend made of Dora the Explorer.

[Lord O' Bones]

Err, Bakker would make Romeo and Juliet into what Legend of the Overfiend made of Dora the Explorer.

I, uh, WHAT?!

ETA: Bonus points if any of you know where the intro to

came from. Except for Kal, obviously. And probably Stego.

[Spastic Plastic]

Imagine what Bakker would turn E.T. into.