U.S. Politics, 10

[TerraPrime]

Continue.

[lokisnow]

I don't think that the White House was opposed to the public option. I think they made a very calculated decision that their best chance of getting a health care bill was to get the major stakeholders to come along as opposed to Clinton in 1993, as was discussed in the last thread.

Greenwald seems to be suggesting that the White House actually didn't want the public option because they are corporate sell-outs. I cannot prove that he is wrong, but ultimately, I think it's much more likely that they just thought sacrificing it was a necessary evil to get health reform passed. Hell, it's even conceivable that what they did was the best thing for the public option in the long term, if Swordfish can be believed (and perhaps he can be).

The problem is not that they negotiated away the public option to get it passed, it's that they gave it away for nothing. When you have a position like the public option that you can bargain with and you know you're going to lose that position in the final compromise, you need to time the death of the public option so that the other side can take it as a victory compromise. The balance is in finding a way so that your supporters don't feel like they're defeated, but that they made an important and worthy sacrifice for achieving the big victory. As it was the Administration said they weren't going to bargain or negotiate whatsoever with any of their positions, they handed blind victories on every liberal position on health care reform and began the bargaining process by taking the conservative positions on health care reform. This drove the debate brutally right and just deflated liberal support for HCR immensely.

It was like, someone at a job interview stupidly saying, "oh, I've been making 500 or 1000 a week at my last two jobs" and then being STUNNED when the salary they're hired at is 500, even though their last job was at 1000.

The problem for me and other liberals on health care reform is that we liberals didn't get to ask for anything we wanted, we got a base change to the status quo through, but no one ever negotiated on our behalf for what we wanted.

[ThinkerX]

30 big companies granted waviers on their health caree obligations under the new law:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2010-10-07-healthlaw07_ST_N.htm

Nearly a million workers won't get a consumer protection in the U.S. health reform law meant to cap insurance costs because the government exempted their employers.Thirty companies and organizations, including McDonald's (MCD) and Jack in the Box (JACK), won't be required to raise the minimum annual benefit included in low-cost health plans, which are often used to cover part-time or low-wage employees.

The Department of Health and Human Services, which provided a list of exemptions, said it granted waivers in late September so workers with such plans wouldn't lose coverage from employers who might choose instead to drop health insurance altogether.

Without waivers, companies would have had to provide a minimum of $750,000 in coverage next year, increasing to $1.25 million in 2012, $2 million in 2013 and unlimited in 2014

Like the one person commented, these corps probably told the politicians ' give us this exemption or forget about future campaign contributions from us' (more or less).

To me it looks like the funding end of this so called reform is going to crash and burn before it even gets started.

[lokisnow]

Michigan court said the mandate is legal both within the commerce clause and because its structured as a tax.

Good points Trisk, we got them to stay silent, but there was hardly vocal support, perhaps if there'd been a negotiation and they felt like they'd won a big victory on the mandate they may have come with more vocal support.

Also, Christie hates trains, hates construction jobs, loves congestion and in general said a huge fuck you to the most densely packed state in the country.

The more republicans obstruct recovery the more I think they actually do hate america, and are attempting to deliberately do everything possible to keep America stagnating. It's hard to find anything Republican not putridly vile and actively working against the interest of the country, other than Scot. ;)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Lockesnow,

When you say "structured as a tax" what does that mean? There's a box on the 1040 that asks whether you have health care insurance and if you don't you tax goes up? If so how the hell could Pres. Obama tell Stephanopolous with a straight face back in 09 that the mandate was not a tax?

[TrackerNeil]

I've been trying to follow the arguments about whether repeal of the health law is actually a legislative goal or if it's just a cause celebre. I am honestly not sure what is going to happen, but my gut (and we all know that good leaders go with their gut) tells me that threats to repeal are not sincere. As complicated as the health reform is, repeal is also very complicated. And American voters like reform is you frame it one way in the polling while disliking it while you frame it another way. The point being that it's not as unpopular as the most vocal critics would have you believe.

I'm imagine people like Sharron Angle are serious about repeal, but I doubt too many others are. The same barriers to passage of the ACA - control of the House, the presidency, and a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate - will impede the way of repeal. Absent some sustained Republican tsunami, I just don't see it.

I think it's more likely Republicans will use their House majority (should they achieve it) to nibble at the corners here and there, most likely at the parts of the law that make it deficit-reducing.

[awesome possum]

The more republicans obstruct recovery the more I think they actually do hate america, and are attempting to deliberately do everything possible to keep America stagnating. It's hard to find anything Republican not putridly vile and actively working against the interest of the country, other than Scot. ;)

I sometimes feel the same way, but I think the truth is uglier. Some Republicans (Dems too, but more of the GOP fits this bill) are like spoiled stubborn toddlers. If they don't get their way they refuse to not just participate, but attempt to sabotage any and everything around them. Especially done by those who didn't let them get their way. If that means hurting the country and the American people they claim to be the protectorate of, so be it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Locksnow,

FYI I've never been a member of any political party.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

30 big companies granted waviers on their health caree obligations under the new law:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2010-10-07-healthlaw07_ST_N.htm

This is B.S.. Are we a government of equally-applied laws, or a government of bureaucrats who grant waivers to preferred constituents?

I oppose the mandate, but either it applies to everyone or nobody, not just those large employers with sufficient pull to get what they want. Personally, I don't believe it had anything to do with contributions or anything underhanded like that. The threat that they'd drop coverage completely, a political catastrophe for the Administration, was all the leverage they needed.

The problem is not that they negotiated away the public option to get it passed, it's that they gave it away for nothing. When you have a position like the public option that you can bargain with and you know you're going to lose that position in the final compromise, you need to time the death of the public option so that the other side can take it as a victory compromise.

I think it boiled down to simple head counting within the committee and within congressional democrats as a whole. Not all democrats are liberals, and some of those that aren't made it very clear they wouldn't accept a public option. If you can't even get enough votes on the committee, you're not going to be able to generate much of a public debate.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

oops. Double post.

[TrackerNeil]

I sometimes feel the same way, but I think the truth is uglier. Some Republicans (Dems too, but more of the GOP fits this bill) are like spoiled stubborn toddlers. If they don't get their way they refuse to not just participate, but attempt to sabotage any and everything around them. Especially done by those who didn't let them get their way. If that means hurting the country and the American people they claim to be the protectorate of, so be it.

Well, I think Democrats are less able to obstruct not because they are somehow more noble, but because the party discipline to endlessly and constantly filibuster just isn't there. The neat thing about liberals is that we value intellectual and cultural diversity; the downside is that we can't get together to do very much.

Edited to add: Here's a neat piece about the parts of the ACA Republicans are mostly likely to target for defunding are the very parts that will reduce the deficit over time.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Greenwald seems to be suggesting that the White House actually didn't want the public option because they are corporate sell-outs. I cannot prove that he is wrong, but ultimately, I think it's much more likely that they just thought sacrificing it was a necessary evil to get health reform passed...

Yves Smith recently commented

Update 5:45 AM: I’m late to review comments from yesterday, and a remark courtesy Emanilo Z, prompted by a Corrente interview of Paul Street, who was early to recognize Obama’s considerable shortcomings per his 2008 book, is germane. The quote comes (in the second derivative nature that the Web can sometimes take) from the Amazon review deemed most useful:

”As a state senator Obama held up a bill in committee that promised to deliver universal health care in Illinois and watered it down so that it merely called for the creation of a commission that would study how health care access might be expanded in the state.”

That seems to epitomize achievement, Obama style.

I followed the link to the interview and while it does contain a lot of laughable Marxist bullcrap I must say I was impressed with how Mr. Street smelled out that rat earlier even than me. Obama is a nothing man who believes nothing, has accomplished nothing, and who desires nothing other than his own self promotion.

[Shryke]

This is B.S.. Are we a government of equally-applied laws, or a government of bureaucrats who grant waivers to preferred constituents?

I oppose the mandate, but either it applies to everyone or nobody, not just those large employers with sufficient pull to get what they want. Personally, I don't believe it had anything to do with contributions or anything underhanded like that. The threat that they'd drop coverage completely, a political catastrophe for the Administration, was all the leverage they needed.

I'm with you here FLOW. This be bullshit.

[Shryke]

The problem is not that they negotiated away the public option to get it passed, it's that they gave it away for nothing. When you have a position like the public option that you can bargain with and you know you're going to lose that position in the final compromise, you need to time the death of the public option so that the other side can take it as a victory compromise.

The problem here is, I think, you are thinking of the wrong negotiations. It appears the public option died in negotiations with the health care industry, not negotiations with the GOP.

Basically, by the time the debate hit the Senate floor, the public option had already been traded away in return for industry support.

[The Progressive]

The public option died because the AMA et al will not accept pay-cut.

[lokisnow]

if we traded it for industry support we should have gotten industry support instead of mostly industry silence (and I remember tv ads from the industry that were against).

I considered making this a new thread, but eh, Welcome to the Anti-Stimulus

But Senate Republicans, alongside some conservative Democrats, have decided to make the government pro-cyclical: Rather than fighting the downturn in the business cycle, the government is now accelerating it.

Also, Joe Miller of Alaska, who says Medicaid is unconstitutional, has received Medicaid. Funny thing how the Constitution doesn't apply to yourself when you're getting some for you and yours.

and Harry Reid received a couple of big endorsements today... from Republicans, probably because he's more republican than democrat. I'm really torn on this, I would love to see Reid permanently out of the senate, but I don't want to risk losing the majority or risk the damage someone as insane as Angle could do. It'd be great if we could just get Democrat leadership installed in the senate and have the fake leadership of Reid thrown out.

[DanteGabriel]

One for the Great Headlines file:

Congressional Candidate Regrets Sucking Reindeer Dildo

I kinda feel bad for this woman. I've been at parties where... things like this were photographed. I've been photographed doing more offensive things at parties. Inevitably with the "... and that photo will stop me from ever having a political career" commentary following.

All the same, I'd love to put her in a debate with Christine O'Donnell, just to see what happens.

[Gertrude]

One for the Great Headlines file:

Congressional Candidate Regrets Sucking Reindeer Dildo

:lmao:

But yeah, seriously. We all have photos like this or worse. It hardly even registers on the 'inappropriate behavior' meter.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

One for the Great Headlines file:

Congressional Candidate Regrets Sucking Reindeer Dildo

I kinda feel bad for this woman. I've been at parties where... things like this were photographed. I've been photographed doing more offensive things at parties. Inevitably with the "... and that photo will stop me from ever having a political career" commentary following.

All the same, I'd love to put her in a debate with Christine O'Donnell, just to see what happens.

I'd like to see James Dobson or whoever try to use this against her. The dude with the dildo in the picture is her husband. "So James, are you saying that certain sexual behaviors are off limits within the holy sanctimony of marriage?"

[Shryke]

These pictures are funny but there's no reason they should be held against her.

Shit, this would encourage me to vote for her. Makes her look like a normal person.