A gay man and two gay minors tortured and sodomized for being gay

[All-for-Joffrey]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/nyregion/09bias.html?_r=3&hp

From the article:

The attackers forced the man to strip to his underwear and tied him to a chair, the police said. One of the teenage victims was still there, and the “Goonies” ordered him to attack the man. The teenager hit him in the face and burned him with a cigarette on his nipple and penis as the others jeered and shouted gay slurs, the police said. Then the attackers whipped the man with a chain and sodomized him with a small baseball bat.

The beatings and robberies went on for hours. They were followed by a remarkably thorough attempt to sanitize the house — including pouring bleach down drains, the police said, as little by little word of the attacks trickled to the police. A crucial clue to the attackers was provided by someone who slipped a note to a police officer outside the crime scene, at 1910 Osborne Place in Morris Heights, near Bronx Community College.

One of the worst US hate crimes I've heard about in a while. What is it in the past month that has caused this anti-LGBT upsurge? I live in Madison, WI of all places and I was almost assaulted myself for being gay last weekend.

[Ormond]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/nyregion/09bias.html?_r=3&hp

From the article:

One of the worst US hate crimes I've heard about in a while. What is it in the past month that has caused this anti-LGBT upsurge? I live in Madison, WI of all places and I was almost assaulted myself for being gay last weekend.

I think it's a bit too early to say we are really having an upsurge. Anything which actually occurs at random is going to seem to come in bunches, because contrary to first impressions, "random" does NOT mean "evenly spaced."

However, the combination of economic frustration along with the "copycat"

effect could be contributing. Suicides do go up right after someone famous commits suicide, so hate crimes could perhaps increase a bit because of publicity about other hate crimes.

[awesome possum]

I say toss these guys into the gen pop area of the state prison and tell everyone there that they're child rapists. They deserve all the horrible things they've done to be done to them.

[Mad Monkey]

But it feels like being anti-gay is still fairly socially acceptable, at least in a lot of circles.

Yeah, I think it says a lot about our society that a respected politician can say that he feels that gays shouldn't be allowed to be in the military or get married and still be part of mainstream political discourse (and have a shot at being reelected!) Can you imagine if someone said the same thing about blacks? I know that racism isn't gone, but you at least have to hide that shit when polite company's around.

There was a Sarah Silverman quote in another thread that I'm going to find that says it all much more eloquently. When your society treats a group of people as being less than other citizens and less worthy of fair treatment, it sends a pretty damn clear message that this group is less than other people.

You see it again and again in history.

[El-ahrairah]

Something along the lines of "anti-gay is the only form of bigotry still tolerated" was mentioned in another thread.

I'd be curious to know if studies have been done which support this. It would not surprise me. It seems to me that while racism is certainly not gone, it's been made much more taboo than it used to be. But it feels like being anti-gay is still fairly socially acceptable, at least in a lot of circles.

Well what does "anti-gay" mean? I do hope you don't put friendly neighborhood homophobes like myself into the same category as these people - whose "orientation" is a thousand times more perverted than that of their victim who was only "being gay."

I can't even begin to fathom it - they disapprove of one's sexual lifestyle, so they proceed to commit far more hideous acts upon him? You show you're against sodomy by sodomizing? Does not compute.

[Sara]

Well what does "anti-gay" mean? I do hope you don't put friendly neighborhood homophobes like myself into the same category as these people - whose "orientation" is a thousand times more perverted than that of their victim who was only "being gay."

Well, you "friendly neighborhood homophobes" certainly aren't helping matters...

[Maltaran]

Well what does "anti-gay" mean? I do hope you don't put friendly neighborhood homophobes like myself into the same category as these people - whose "orientation" is a thousand times more perverted than that of their victim who was only "being gay."

I would suggest the difference is mainly one of degree, rather than category - both you and they are anti-gay, but they go rather further in expressing their disapproval.

[Cantabile]

How does one exactly define a friendly neighborhood homophobe? Even if one isn't putting their prejudices into concrete discrimination, or hate crimes, its still a huge part of the issue. Society shouldn't simply treat gays equally, but view them equally. Treating visible homophobia and discrimination is step one, but there is absolutely no excuse for even being homophobic in the first place.

[Spastic Plastic]

Exactly what Maltaran said. Homophobia is unfortunately still around, even though this disgusting crime was an extreme case. Many people go around hating gays their for their whole lives without ever committing hate crimes. These criminals went to an extreme by raping that guy with a baseball bat, while El-Ahrairah prefers to express his homophobia from behind a keyboard. Different degrees.

[Mad Monkey]

Different degrees, but the lower-degree guys help create a society where people feel comfortable dehumanizing gay people. Not everyone in America was involved in lynching during Reconstruction, but do you really think that it would have been as common and as rampant as it was if there wasn't for the pervasive and oft-articulated belief that blacks were subhuman? No, your friendly neighborhood homophobe might not be as monstrous as the people who commit crimes like this, but they're part of the general problem. It's not possible to guarantee the safety of a minority in this or any other country while at the same time fearing and despising them.

[Dark Knight]

How does one exactly define a friendly neighborhood homophobe? Even if one isn't putting their prejudices into concrete discrimination, or hate crimes, its still a huge part of the issue. Society shouldn't simply treat gays equally, but view them equally. Treating visible homophobia and discrimination is step one, but there is absolutely no excuse for even being homophobic in the first place.

You can't tell people what to think. What you suggest is actually a paradox since you say not to do this which is held sacred by any democratic societies - freedom. freedom of thought and yes - freedom of speech also. As long as no crime is committed, and as far as I know being a homophob isn't a crime, every person can have his opinion on anything.

Edit - regarding the bolded section in the quote: and what exactly do you mean by visible homophobia?? If I wrinkle my nose when I see a gay couple, how should I be "treated"?

No excuse for being homophobic? what about the excuse which says "I don't think being gay is normal"? my grandmother doesn't think that the fact that I don't like swimming is normal - does that mean there is no excuse for hating swimming??

for the record - I am am totally cool with gay people, but I also totally cool with homophobs as long as they don't commit crimes against gays. Everyone is entitled for an opinion.

[Mad Monkey]

You can't tell people what to think.

Sure you can. Freedom of speech, remember? You can tell anyone what to think about anything. They just don't have to listen.

freedom of thought and yes - freedom of speech also

I think you're making a common error here. In general, prohibitions on abridging freedom of speech and expression apply to the government. The government can't (usually) throw you in jail or fine you or simply thinking or speaking something that is bigoted or offensive. But I can call you (not you, of course, but a hypothetical bigot) a fucking idiot and call all your ideas troglodytic horseshit. And you can return the favor, of course.

[Lord Mord]

DK,

You can't tell people what to think.

Sure I can. They don't have to listen, but there may be consequences for ignoring their duty.

What you suggest is actually a paradox since you say not to do this which is held sacred by any democratic societies - freedom. freedom of thought and yes - freedom of speech also. As long as no crime is committed, and as far as I know being a homophob isn't a crime, every person can have his opinion on anything.

So far, nobody is saying it's a legal crime, only a moral one. At one time, firing someone because you found out she's gay was legal, too, but it was still pretty loathsome.

Edit - regarding the bolded section in the quote: and what exactly do you mean by visible homophobia?? If I wrinkle my nose when I see a gay couple, how should I be "treated"?

Depends. If you're talking about, "I did this thing, and then it comes up in conversation, without remorse," then the answer is, "with considerable contempt".

OTOH, if you're talking about, "I did this thing, now we're talking about the merits of Boardwalk Empire," and you manage to keep it civil and direct, then it's "with heartfelt respect."

No excuse for being homophobic? what about the excuse which says "I don't think being gay is normal"?

What's your excuse for thinking that? But you're right, it's not normal to be gay, it's superior.

my grandmother doesn't think that the fact that I don't like swimming is normal - does that mean there is no excuse for hating swimming??

Once again, what's your excuse for hating it?

for the record - I am am totally cool with gay people, but I also totally cool with homophobs as long as they don't commit crimes against gays. Everyone is entitled for an opinion.

Sure. And they're also entitled to be treated like shitheels for it -- that's my right, to lay on them a scorn they richly deserve.

[The Evil Hat]

Well what does "anti-gay" mean? I do hope you don't put friendly neighborhood homophobes like myself into the same category as these people - whose "orientation" is a thousand times more perverted than that of their victim who was only "being gay."

Oh, don't worry, I have a ton of respect for the neighborhood homophobe. I treat him with every bit of respect that I grant the friendly neighborhood misogynist and the friendly neighborhood racist.

It's true that there's freedom of speech, etc, but that doesn't mean that you can't be a bad person because of what you say, just that you can't be prosecuted for it.

[Ocean of Notions]

"Friendly" and "homophobe" contradict each other. You're not exactly friendly towards homosexuals if you're a homophobe.

[Tempra]

"Friendly" and "homophobe" contradict each other. You're not exactly friendly towards homosexuals if you're a homophobe.

It is the difference between tolerance and acceptance. We can expect (and demand) tolerance in a civilized society, but not acceptance.

As for the torturers, execute them.

[Ocean of Notions]

It is the difference between tolerance and acceptance. We can expect (and demand) tolerance in a civilized society, but not acceptance.

But don't label yourself with "friendly". Mere tolerance is not "friendly".

[All-for-Joffrey]

Edit - regarding the bolded section in the quote: and what exactly do you mean by visible homophobia?? If I wrinkle my nose when I see a gay couple, how should I be "treated"?

Uh...the same way you should be treated and thought of as for wrinkling your nose at an ethnicity or race other than your own? Again, this goes back to what the first few posters were saying, it would be regarded as a huge shock and scandal for someone to wrinkle their nose at a minority in polite society but it's perfectly socially acceptable for someone to be visibly discriminatory against gays, lesbians and transgendered people. The fact that you do not think someone should be judged (harshly) for displaying this overtly discriminatory behavior baffles me. Incidentally, have you ever stopped and thought about the repercussions of this type of discrimination on gay individuals and how it affects their sense of self-worth?

[El-ahrairah]

Many people go around hating gays their for their whole lives without ever committing hate crimes. These criminals went to an extreme by raping that guy with a baseball bat, while El-Ahrairah prefers to express his homophobia from behind a keyboard. Different degrees.

I suppose they are technically somewhat connected, but it's not very helpful to say that. You could just as well go from casting an admiring glance at an expensive car to stealing it - the same basic thing, appreciation of the car, is involved. And anyhow I certainly don't "hate gays".

"Friendly" and "homophobe" contradict each other. You're not exactly friendly towards homosexuals if you're a homophobe.

Just so. Which is why maybe we shouldn't use a word for a mental disorder to describe people with a moral opposition to certain activities. ^_^

[Tempra]

But don't label yourself with "friendly". Mere tolerance is not "friendly".

The definition of friendly (not hostile) is sufficiently broad to cover his use, but I think you're over analyzing his use of the term.

Different degrees' date=' but the lower-degree guys help create a society where people feel comfortable dehumanizing gay people. Not everyone in America was involved in lynching during Reconstruction, but do you really think that it would have been as common and as rampant as it was if there wasn't for the pervasive and oft-articulated belief that blacks were subhuman? No, your friendly neighborhood homophobe might not be as monstrous as the people who commit crimes like this, but they're part of the general problem. It's not possible to guarantee the safety of a minority in this or any other country while at the same time fearing and despising them. [/quote']

I think it is unfair to blame El-ahrairah for the lawlessness of another individual. El-ahrairah does not condone physical violence against homosexuals. I disagree with stiffer penalties for hate crimes. Am I also to blame?