A gay man and two gay minors tortured and sodomized for being gay

[The Evil Hat]

Um... I see no reason at all to dispute the scientific consensus that sexual orientation is largely innate. Not sure what you're talking about here.

So, if you don't dispute that being gay isn't a choice, you're saying that they have the choice to either live their lives or repress every one of their desires in order to please you and like minded individuals? Okay then. From this day forth, you're not to have any sort of romantic or sexual relationships with a woman. It's your choice, after all, and I find it uncomfortable to imagine you and *female name* getting it on, so please oblige me and isolate yourself

[Lord Mord]

El-ahrairah,

The word "hate" is horribly overused today, I think - why can't we accept that someone may have politics you strongly dislike but lack any malice directed toward you?

Of course we can.

OTOH, your rationale here is not about "this is bad for the polticial process" or "this is bad for human rights generally". Where have you made a political argument?

My concern is that I've so far only witnessed personal and highly prejudicial arguments instead. Change your basis, and you will get, if not support, at least a political discussion.

In the absence of mind-reading machines I think it's fair to say I'm qualified to report what my own emotions are. ;)

Of course you are. Accusations of hatred are, I should think, based on the personal nature of your arguments.

So I'll tell you what I do hate - being in arguments like this one. I admit I will often get a bestial satisfaction at first, but later I know that all my snarky little posts are enraging some real people out there, and ones with a lot more stake in the debate than me. Sometimes I really have to speak my mind, but it's a foul thing all around, honestly.

I agree with pretty much everything here. Especially the parts about tranistory bestial satisfaction and the need to speak your mind.

You sound genuinely engaged, and it's very cool.

[Daemrion]

So, if you don't dispute that being gay isn't a choice, you're saying that they have the choice to either live their lives or repress every one of their desires in order to please you and like minded individuals? Okay then. From this day forth, you're not to have any sort of romantic or sexual relationships with a woman. It's your choice, after all, and I find it uncomfortable to imagine you and *female name* getting it on, so please oblige me and isolate yourself

But some innate desires are bad.

For example, if someone cuts you off on the road when you are driving, isn't your first innate desire, anger at the other person which then could express itself as road rage? And isn't that a bad thing?

Not saying that all things innate to a person are bad or good, but just because something is innate and not a choice doesn't make it good or bad per se. It's how someone reacts to the things that are innate to them that defines how bad or good they are.

As for the torturers at the beginning of the thread, I have nothing but utter contempt for them. That was a disgusting thing to do to anyone, gay or not.

[Lightning Lord]

Yeah, I'm torn. My initial reaction was that the perpetrators were less than animals and should be treated as such. But they are not. They are humans who should be dealt with in a manner that represents justice. And hopefully that will be the case. '

El-Ahraihra is a fascination for me. He is clearly very book smart for his age, yet is also clearly living in the most sheltered of worlds. I bet he got slapped on the wrist with a yard stick when he was caught watching five minutes of MTV when he was 14. "Yes mother, I won't ever go to channel 25 again mother."

ETA: When I say "humans who should be dealt with in a matter that represents justice," I mean that they should be tried, and if guilty, should be in deep shit. This is as opposed to lining them up against a silo in some remote corner of NYC and giving them the unofficial firesquad, which is likely what some people want.

Yah, I know. I don't want them executed or actual justice to be removed from the process. Just sickens me, is all.

As for El...*hands in air, exasperation* Time will tell. All the life experience in the world can't change someone unwilling to learn from said experience.

[Lord Mord]

El-ahrairah,

You asked if there can be a political discussion without moral aspersions cast. I ask you: what do you imagine you're doing when people discuss that old tired dead issue of gay marriage, and they talk about two persons making the civil, political commitment of marriage to each other, you choose to labor the discussion with accusations of blasphemy or other immorality?

If you could write those kinds of words out of your voacbulary, and talk about marriage, for example, as the political issue that it is, you might possibly make headway.

How about this: is a vote to recognize gay marriage as legal a sin? After all, you're not actually getting gay-married, so where is the sin? Is hate speech a sin? Is a vote to pass legislation banning hate speech a sin? Or is a vote to fail legislation banning hate speech a sin? Surely God has a position one way or the other, so which is it? Does he prefer that I scream racial obscenities with impunity, or does he prefer that I be forcibly silenced for the heinous crime of speaking my mind? If not either, then he is against legislating to prevent an action he admittedly hates. Therefore, even if God found it abominable, why should legal equality of gays, including access to the public institution (which is entirely devoid of sacrament) of marriage, be legislated against, when God can take such an equanimious position on blatant projections of hate and rage? Or does God simply wish to punish gays more harshly than racists and bigots?

Or, if it's not a sin to vote to establish gay marriage, then why would you stand against it?

[gryphon strike]

How does one exactly define a friendly neighborhood homophobe? Even if one isn't putting their prejudices into concrete discrimination, or hate crimes, its still a huge part of the issue. Society shouldn't simply treat gays equally, but view them equally. Treating visible homophobia and discrimination is step one, but there is absolutely no excuse for even being homophobic in the first place.

Sorry but I have to disagree true it is not homosexuality that triggers it but rather pedophilia but it is still a justified response to have that fear until proven otherwise.

Yes I know but the fact is that there is going to remain an association of sorts no matter how much you can intellectualised it.

[kungtotte]

What in the Pink Floyd are you talking about?

[Dark Knight]

OK, responses:

Lord Caspen - When I say "you can't tell people what to think" I obviously mean that it's just fruitless, not that you are unable to do it, don't be petty. Didn't get the duty thing - what duty is it?

Again, you can't say that something, or anything, is a "moral" crime, because different people have different morals. There are only crimes that are defineable by law. You should accept the fact that not everybody think the way you do. If people had that onderstanding and accepted that, things would have been much better in the regard of human relationships...

What does it matter what's my reason - yes it's a reason, not an excuse - for hating swimming? it doesn't matter. Exactly as it doesn't matter why somebody is a homophob. If they are not trying to change your sexual tendencies, why should you try and change their opinions or beliefs? Why can't we all just live together peacefully without trying to change people?

All-for-Joffrey - If a gay person is insecure or feels ashamed or whatever - it's his problem. There are many people who are ashamed of different things that there is no reason to be ashamed of - I don't see them blame others for that.

About judgement - you can judge anyone anyway you want. I'll wrinkle my nose at you for being gay and you'll wrinkle yours at me for being a homophob. We won't be friends, but we won't be enemies.

Cantabile - You just missed my whole point. I don't think that being gay isn't normal. Point is, I also don't think that, thinking that being gay isn't normal, isn't normal, which all of you seem to imply.

regarding the definition of normal - it's very subjective. I don't mean normal in any wide accepted-by-all sense, like biological. I mean normal according to a specific person's moral code, and as different people have different moral codes, there is no one "right" normal. That's what I try to explain to my grandmother all the time:-).

All in all my point is this - look at the mirror before you look at others. You demend from people to stop thinking badly on a group of people, yet you think not less badly at them, so...

(couldn't find a more suitable word than "badly" - prey excuse me, but english isn't my mother tongue).

[awesome possum]

The word "hate" is horribly overused today, I think

Homophobe:

a person who hates or fears homosexual people

So you either hate homosexuals or you're scared of them. Either way, it's your sheltered little life. Enjoy it.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

Why can't we all just live together peacefully without trying to change people?

Many homosexuals would like to be married, and many bigots would like for them to not be married. That tends to produce tension.

[Ormond]

Homophobe:

So you either hate homosexuals or you're scared of them. Either way, it's your sheltered little life. Enjoy it.

You can have false beliefs and prejudices about things you neither hate nor are afraid of.

Personally I do think it's unfortunate that the everyday word for "anti-gay attitudes" has become "homophobia". I think some racists are afraid of people of other races, but we don't use words like "Negrophobia" or "Asianphobia"

to describe them.

IMHO, a much better term would be heterosexism, which is parallel to words like racism, sexism, and ageism. Frankly, I think that having heterosexist attitudes when one is NOT "homophobic" is morally worse than truly having a phobia. A true phobia is at least partially out of one's conscious control. A dispassionate belief that others are inferior to oneself and should not have equal rights in terms of marriage, etc. is much more under one's conscious control and therefore more morally suspect.

[sologdin]

You demend from people to stop thinking badly on a group of people, yet you think not less badly at them, so...

DK--

there is something to this. people with bad politics--such as an opposition to gay rights--essentially suffer a mental disability, and it would be wrongful for us to ridicule them because of that disability. after all, who chooses to be a democrat or a libertarian or rightwing nutter or a reformed anarcho-marxist or whatever? these complexes of belief are far too complicated to be matters of volition, to the extent that volition might be said to exist.

so, i'd join my voice to yours in decrying the homophobephobes, except, of course, they will counter that we are homophobephobephobes, which is, according to the above-reasoning, also a counter-humanitarian project.

[The Evil Hat]

Why can't we all just live together peacefully without trying to change people?

Do you really not see the hilarious hypocrisy of using this to defend your prejudices? You're saying that we should just accept you - when you're blatantly not accepting others.

[Cantabile]

Sorry but I have to disagree true it is not homosexuality that triggers it but rather pedophilia but it is still a justified response to have that fear until proven otherwise.

Yes I know but the fact is that there is going to remain an association of sorts no matter how much you can intellectualised it.

I am not really sure I understand this post. Why are you mentioning pedophilia? Triggers "it"? What is "it"? Either way, how in the hell is homophobia a justified response? This is a fear learned from one's environment, not a fear one is born with. And yes, it can be incredibly hard to overcome what one has been socialized with their entire lives, I agree completely. I know plenty of people born in the South who were raised homophobic, racist, xenophobic, and anti anything that isn't a Caucasian Christian from a middle-class family or better. And despite learning better, and knowing how much bullshit they were brainwashed with, their conscious understanding is often not enough to fully overcome the prejudices they were taught.

But there's a huge, huge difference between having those associations and trying very hard to mentally overcome, and simply giving in to the discriminatory beliefs that you have been taught and accepting them.

OK, responses:

Cantabile - You just missed my whole point. I don't think that being gay isn't normal. Point is, I also don't think that, thinking that being gay isn't normal, isn't normal, which all of you seem to imply.

regarding the definition of normal - it's very subjective. I don't mean normal in any wide accepted-by-all sense, like biological. I mean normal according to a specific person's moral code, and as different people have different moral codes, there is no one "right" normal. That's what I try to explain to my grandmother all the time:-).

All in all my point is this - look at the mirror before you look at others. You demend from people to stop thinking badly on a group of people, yet you think not less badly at them, so...

(couldn't find a more suitable word than "badly" - prey excuse me, but english isn't my mother tongue).

Obviously morality is subjective, and that "believing gay is abnormal" may be the normal view point from your acculturation. However, this is no less of a pathetic, inexcusable view point than "being black isn't normal!" Such discriminatory beliefs may be common in your family, your peers, and subculture, and that may lead you to believe they're normal, but I'd hope you would have the intellect to be able to see beyond the beliefs you've been taught, and not simply be a breathing puppet. Moral codes are subjective, but moral codes also need serve an actual function. "Gay is abnormal," serves no benefit to humanity as a moral code, while at the same time condemning, and damaging the lives of millions of individuals. If you're perfectly okay having a moral belief that not only serves no functional purpose or benefit, while at the same time inflicting harm on fellow human beings, then that is your choice. I just hope you won't be hypocritical enough to think that it doesn't make you a repulsive human being.

And no, the mirror comment simply doesn't work. You are holding a prejudice that harms individuals, and has no logical, or beneficial reason to humanity. My prejudice is towards those people, because of how they're causing so much harm, all because they seemingly lack the mental ability to appraise what they've been taught logically, instead of believing discriminatory viewpoints simply because their mommies taught them it. This is equally as absurd as a racist saying, "They all hate me for being a racist! They hate me, because I hate others! So they're just as bad as me!"

There is no comparison.

[awesome possum]

You can have false beliefs and prejudices about things you neither hate nor are afraid of.

You're right. Let me rephrase.

So you either hate homosexuals, you're scared of them, or you're an ignorant and small-minded pitiful individual.

Better?

[Dark Knight]

You demend from people to stop thinking badly on a group of people, yet you think not less badly at them, so...

DK--

there is something to this. people with bad politics--such as an opposition to gay rights--essentially suffer a mental disability, and it would be wrongful for us to ridicule them because of that disability. after all, who chooses to be a democrat or a libertarian or rightwing nutter or a reformed anarcho-marxist or whatever? these complexes of belief are far too complicated to be matters of volition, to the extent that volition might be said to exist.

so, i'd join my voice to yours in decrying the homophobephobes, except, of course, they will counter that we are homophobephobephobes, which is, according to the above-reasoning, also a counter-humanitarian project.

bad politics? no such thing. You and many people think it's bad, but a whole other bunch of people think it's good. Didn't really get your last comment.

Do you really not see the hilarious hypocrisy of using this to defend your prejudices? You're saying that we should just accept you - when you're blatantly not accepting others.

First, they are not my prejudices. And yes, I say that hating someone just because said person hates something about you is childish, stupid and immature, and makes you not any better than him, and moreover is a stain upon your morality.

Obviously morality is subjective, and that "believing gay is abnormal" may be the normal view point from your acculturation. However, this is no less of a pathetic, inexcusable view point than "being black isn't normal!" Such discriminatory beliefs may be common in your family, your peers, and subculture, and that may lead you to believe they're normal, but I'd hope you would have the intellect to be able to see beyond the beliefs you've been taught, and not simply be a breathing puppet. Moral codes are subjective, but moral codes also need serve an actual function. "Gay is abnormal," serves no benefit to humanity as a moral code, while at the same time condemning, and damaging the lives of millions of individuals. If you're perfectly okay having a moral belief that not only serves no functional purpose or benefit, while at the same time inflicting harm on fellow human beings, then that is your choice. I just hope you won't be hypocritical enough to think that it doesn't make you a repulsive human being.

And no, the mirror comment simply doesn't work. You are holding a prejudice that harms individuals, and has no logical, or beneficial reason to humanity. My prejudice is towards those people, because of how they're causing so much harm, all because they seemingly lack the mental ability to appraise what they've been taught logically, instead of believing discriminatory viewpoints simply because their mommies taught them it. This is equally as absurd as a racist saying, "They all hate me for being a racist! They hate me, because I hate others! So they're just as bad as me!"

There is no comparison.

As I said, everything is a matter of a point of view and opinion. A homophobe may be repulsive in your eyes, but not in someone else's eyes. For every opinion you have there is someone in the world who has an opposite opinion.

And I really don't get the HARM thing - I an talking about the OPINION thay being gay isn't normal. How someone having this opinion is harming anybody? By not supporting the gay marriage law? Well, that only means that more people think that's abnormal than normal. There is nothing you can do about it - right now gays are a minority, exactly as, for example, other ethnical minorities are. I don't say it's right or wrong, I just say it is what it is. And believe me, I know what being a minority means and I feel for all the gay people who want to get married and can't. Hell, we Jews had to make our own country to escape prejudice! And as Jew in Israel I cannot legaly marry a non-jewish person. I detest it, I object it, but I am a minority and I accept it. I don't say that all those who support this are commiting moral crimes.

So you either hate homosexuals, you're scared of them, or you're an ignorant and small-minded pitiful individual

That's your opinion :-). I don't remeber that in the definition of neither "Ignorant" nor "Small-minded" nor "pitifull" it is said that it means objecting something out of something other than fear or hatred.

[Cantabile]

As I said, everything is a matter of a point of view and opinion. A homophobe may be repulsive in your eyes, but not in someone else's eyes. For every opinion you have there is someone in the world who has an opposite opinion.

And I really don't get the HARM thing - I an talking about the OPINION thay being gay isn't normal. How someone having this opinion is harming anybody? By not supporting the gay marriage law? Well, that only means that more people think that's abnormal than normal. There is nothing you can do about it - right now gays are a minority, exactly as, for example, other ethnical minorities are. I don't say it's right or wrong, I just say it is what it is. And believe me, I know what being a minority means and I feel for all the gay people who want to get married and can't. Hell, we Jews had to make our own country to escape prejudice! And as Jew in Israel I cannot legaly marry a non-jewish person. I detest it, I object it, but I am a minority and I accept it. I don't say that all those who support this are commiting moral crimes.

Claiming that something is an "opinion" and that all opinions are equal, is simply a cop out for not being able to support your own opinion. Opinion and belief are not integers of equal value. Your belief is simply "gay is abnormal" with the entire supporting basis being "that's what my culture has taught me." You have provided absolutely no support for the reason of this belief, and how it provides anything to society, or benefits our species in anyway. However, the opposite view, is founded in rationality. Believing that being "gay is abnormal" inflicts harm upon millions of individuals, as previously stated, as it sets the foundation for a culture in which gays can be legally, and socially, oppressed, and not accepted. This in turn affects the families and peers of those millions of individuals. If instead of a humanistic view point you want to view it from an economic one, look at it this way: when millions of people are suffering depression, limiting their productivity, and cannot be equally inegrated into a society, the efficiency of that society is simply not at it's optimum.

Belief that gays are abnormal = Emotional and physical suffering of millions of human beings, and the trickle effect to their peers, families, and the societies they live in.

Belief that gays are normal = Acceptance of those millions of human beings, allowing them to live unoppressed, as "normal" members of society, increasing the efficiency of that society both economically, and in terms of allowing other social issues to be focused on, as well as for more resources in addressing those issues.

Seeing as believing that gays are abnormal has only adverse effects for our species, and you are unable to come up with a single beneficial reason, whereas believing that they are normal has more benefits than I can personally ennumerate, your choice is unequivocable idiocy.

This view that "things are how they are," is nothing more than a coward and a lazy man's excuse for dealing with the conditions of reality. If people don't give a shit, then nothing changes. And people with your mindset are the reason things don't change for the better. To address social issues, there has to be social awareness, understanding, and a drive to make those changes. It used to be normal to believe women were inferior to men, that they shouldn't have educations, occupations, or any political influence, be it by voting or holding office. By your opinion, since that was normal, no one should have done anything and just lived with it the way it was. Same for the horrendous discrimination faced by blacks and other people groups. Thank God people were not like you, and actually gave a shit and had the drive to make a social difference, allowing for the radical changes we have experiences in the world. Your apathy contributes nothing, but simply holds back social progression. Discrimination and social issues don't exist simply because of the people at the extreme end of the spectrum who abuse the individuals. Social issues exist because people like yourself hold to bigotry, thereby creating a culture in which prejudices are accepted by the society, and alllowed to flourish. You don't have to teach your kids to beat up gays, all you have to do is teach them that gays are abnormal, or believe it yourself, and that social issue will continue to exist, because of people like you.

Wake the hell up, realize that cultural views are created by the inhabitants of those cultures. Which includes you. Only by changing those views are you going to fix the social issues. Simply basking in ignorance and laziness to social change simply keeps the world in the state it is. If you're perfectly content believing gays are abnormal, and don't care to change that view, nor care for these social issues or their impact, then so be it. Don't contribute to the progression of society. But you know, personally I would rather make society a more accepting, tolerant place for the next generation. If you don't want to contribute to our species, but simply live and die as a biological organism with no beneficial impact to the future generations, go for it. There's no law against being pathetic.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Blah blah gay circle jerk blah blah.

Look, this stuff goes both ways*. I find gay people who like to strongly accentuate eccentricities and deliberately seperate themselves from society just because they fuck men annoying as hell.

They are as much to blame as ignorants like El-A. Truth is, gay men (I won't go into the lesbian side of things, simply don't know enough of them) are very similar to straight men in all things accept sexuality, yet for some reason they LOVE to play up the fact that they are gay. Its like their sexuality defines who they are as people. I find it ridiculous.

I have absolutely nothing against fucking men, but gay culture is stupid. As is straight culture for that matter. All it does is divide people. Just BE YOURSELF.

*No pun intended

[MinDonner]

I see. So "annoying SNAY by being a bit camp" is now an atrocity equal to "treating an entire group of people as second-class citizens, denying them rights and torturing them". Good to see some perspective on the issue at last.

[Cantabile]

I agree that it further divides straights and gays, as then people start relating gay culture to the sexual orientation itself, when the reality is that sexual orientation does not determine your personality characteristics. However, the division is what created the gay subculture in the first place, as it allows them a sense of social in-group belonging. This doesn't manifest in cultures where homosexuality is not discriminated against, as in those cases gays are simply members of society like anyone else, but simply with different sexual preferences.

But I don't think you can really compare what we view as popular gay culture to homophobes. Are both creating division among gays and straights? Yes, but the entire nature and extent is completely different in scope. And like I said, let's not forget that gay culture emerged from the discrimination and homophobia in the first place.