Multiculturalism has failed.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

RhaegarTar?

[TerraPrime]

RhaegarTar?

With two X chromosomes!

[TerraPrime]

Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato

Damn furaners!! Learn to speak English!!

[Horza]

Why is this?

Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato

Credere, Obbedire, Combattere!

[Spastic Plastic]

Why is this?

Because the culture they come from is rather different from the cultures in the European countries they emigrate to. That's a fact. I never said they were "inferior" in any way. I just said that the differences between Europeans and Muslim immigrants are greater than the differences between Americans and Mexican immigrants.

No need to be politically correct.

EDIT: Also, who is this RhaegarTar that people keep referring to?

[Shryke]

I'd say it's ridiculous to single out "Muslim" as some sort of main cause of this. The more differences between the immigrants original culture and the one he's joining, the more adjustment will be required.

[Old Nan]

RhaegarTar?

I said white, not WASP. :P

[Spastic Plastic]

I'd say it's ridiculous to single out "Muslim" as some sort of main cause of this. The more differences between the immigrants original culture and the one he's joining, the more adjustment will be required.

I'm saying "Muslim" because that's the case we're talking about here.

I think the "culture-crash" has a lot to do with the attitude of the new country, as well - I already said how Muslim immigrants in Sweden are, on the whole, much more well-behaved than those in France. I've lived in both Sweden and Greece, and they have VERY different attitudes towards immigrants (for example, your regularly see Asians and Africans in Sweden speaking fluent Swedish, but almost never the same thing in Greece).

Can someone explain who this RhaegarTar person is? I'm actually curious.

[Artas]

RhaegarTar was a rather amusing boarder who urged us to outbreed the darkies, lest Europe turn into Eurabia.

[Hereward]

Can someone explain who this RhaegarTar person is? I'm actually curious.

A white supremacist whose fondest wish was a pandemic to cleanse the world of the swarthy types. Also known for threads like "I'm a nice guy, why can't I get a girlfriend" and "I'm a nice guy, why do my girlfriends keep discovering they're lesbians".

[Morekyyn]

I would like to see an example of successful multiculturalism in a country, i´ve looked hard, and Switzerland comes to mind to a very good degree. But othewise? Perhaps Iran (admittedly I don´t know enough about that, but it seems to harbor many different groups of people and religions).

And while I´m at Iran, Terrorist Fist Jab, Sweden harbors a rather large persian minority (muslims?) who seem to assimilate as well as most greek immigrants or Jugoslavs for that matter.

There is something about differences that just provokes many, whether it is religion, sexuality, coloring, clothing, language, soccer team or political view. Multiculturalism focuses on the differences instead of the likeness (fears, love, icecream, chocolate, laughter and so on). .

[Errant Bard]

Because the culture they come from is rather different from the cultures in the European countries they emigrate to. That's a fact.

Living in such a country, I think you vastly overstate the cultural differences.

Typically, in my experience, the "multiculturalism problems" arise mostly with the third generation of these immigrants : young guys who were born and raised in the European country their parents/grandparents emigrated to, who fall back on a caricatural version of their "home" culture because they cannot feel they belong in the host country. Why they don't belong is a mix of xenophobia, poverty and failure of the integration policies (ie: they're parked in ghettos), so in turn, being rejected, they reject the host country's culture, even though they are more products of this culture than the most racist populist. When they go "back" to their "home" country, the culture clash is severe (I listened recently to the account of a guy whose father came from Mali, who tried to go "back to his country", it was interesting that he ended acknowledging that it wasn't his country, and sad that he felt he had no real country, even though his culture was on the whole French)

I work with citizen from several North-african countries (Morrocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Mauritania), all muslims, who just work here, but are not from here or even intending to live here, and not only do I have more sympathy for and similarities with them than with any of those guys throwing rocks on firemen (who are not only "muslims immigrants") but I've been told that the culture and behaviour of these "immigrants" is not my colleagues' and in fact disgusts them. There are also some people, more visibly than before, who come from those poor second generation migrant classes, who say the same thing, like singer/author Abd Al Malik around here.

Also, it's not really a religious problem, see the Rom incident and Sarkozy or Belgium's difficulties. (Yeah, Belgium is like a poster-child for "multiculturalism" problems, with all these secession talks and all. The reasons: economic ones, inflamed by populist leaders playing on the cultural differences (ie xenophobia). And not a muslim in sight. And we should not forget what happened in Yugoslavia, which exploded spectacularly in now 7 distinct countries; some muslims involved but not enough to account for all sides)

[Spastic Plastic]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: at poor old RhaegarTar. Maybe he's not on the board anymore because he finally understood something: the only common denominator between all those lesbian girlfriends was him. Or maybe he killed himself out of despair because he couldn't get a girl and outbreed the darkies single-handedly.

And while I´m at Iran, Terrorist Fist Jab, Sweden harbors a rather large persian minority (muslims?) who seem to assimilate as well as most greek immigrants or Jugoslavs for that matter.

Yep. There's lots of Persians over here. We also have a really large minority of Assyrian Christians, who have assimilated pretty well. I live in a mainly Assyrian neighborhood right now. I mostly agree with Errant Bard's post above: the attitude of the new country has a lot to do with how they assimilate. I understand that Errant Bard is French, and I really don't know much about their situation with the immigrants. The only things I know is that they've packed them in "banlieues" outside the city so they don't need to see them. Doesn't sound like an ideal country to me.

[tzanth]

I hardly think it's unreasonable to expect citizens of the U.S. to have their primary loyalty given to this country.

Except for, your know, those of use who are citizens of two countries.

I don't have a problem with the folks who take advantage of dual citizenship. There's no downside, so it makes sense to me from an individual perspective. What I don't understand is why it is in the interest of the nation as a whole to permit it.

Could you please elaborate on why my citizenship is not in the interest of my nations? I'm not exactly seeing the "downside" here.

[Spastic Plastic]

OMG! What's it like to live under sharia?!?

It's all peaches and cream. Okay, I don't really like having to bend over and pray to Allah thirty times every day. Sometimes I have to go to neighborhood stonings of women and throw a few rocks, but hey, that's life.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

BTW, in this particular case, the reference to RhaegarTar was because he also considered various non-WASP individuals/societies/nations/cultures to be WASPs, logic be damned. The Japanese are WASPs, for example, as are Ashkenazi Jews.

[Shryke]

BTW, in this particular case, the reference to RhaegarTar was because he also considered various non-WASP individuals/societies/nations/cultures to be WASPs, logic be damned. The Japanese are WASPs, for example, as are Ashkenazi Jews.

Oh, it was perfectly logical.

Was Minority X successful in Western Society? Then obviously they must be WASPs. If they weren't WASPs, they wouldn't be successful after all!

[Errant Bard]

The only things I know is that they've packed them in "banlieues" outside the city so they don't need to see them. Doesn't sound like an ideal country to me.

Yes, it's a big failure of the 60/70's policies hitting us right now for catastrophic results.

Though I have to point that the divide here between, to simplify, those who live outside the city and those who live inside is not one of culture, it is one of class (and wealth). It just happens that the poor segment of the population, after Italians in the 50/60, has been trusted by North-African immigrants from the 70's until the 90's/00 (now though I don't have cold numbers, it feels more like though North-African immigration is still strong, the focus is more on people from eastern Europe, and "immigration" problems with arabs have mostly become an internal problem about subcultures), and it was allowed to simmer and rot.

Note that the class divide isn't news since it works like that at least since the 18th century, around Paris, but it was never allowed to break off into an antagonistic subculture.

[Galactus]

Note that the class divide isn't news since it works like that at least since the 18th century, around Paris, but it was never allowed to break off into an antagonistic subculture.

Of course it did. Where do you think you got all those revolutions from?

[Guest Raidne]

Huh? What about black Americans, or Americans of hispanic descent who have assimilated? Or people of asian descent? No, I think "white people" would be just plain racism. I think the American culture is far more than just skin deep, perhaps in an almost unique way compared to most other nations. Don't you?

I don't think anyone here is capable of drafting an agreed-upon set of "aspects of Mexican culture". For that matter, I suspect that experts themselves would disagree on any such list. But it's not necessary to isolate aspects of the culture anyway. It's enough to know that nations generally reflect their culture, and I think the U.S. is a better place to live than Mexico, economically and otherwise. Therefore, I value the culture here over the culture in Mexico, no matter how you'd choose to parse out various "aspects" of those cultures. Inconsequential things like food, etc., don't matter.

The only concrete example I can give from my own experience, and I can't say how widespread it is, was an attitude towards working/saving I saw among migrant laborers in a case I had down in Texas. Those workers were very hard working people, but their only interest was in earning enough money to go back home, and not work at all, living off the savings. Then they'd come back up for another stint. The idea of earning enough to save and advance themselves in life seemed foreign. I'm not sure if these people were outliers, or if their attitude is part of a more general national culture among a certain segment of the population. And in a sense, I don't even care. All I know is I greatly prefer the U.S. to Mexico as a place to live.

Why not? It's actually a pretty good example of successful assimilation, apart from the language issue.

ETA:

I'm not fond of the whole dual citizenship thing, either. Pick one or the other.

Nothing in this post makes sense. Hispanic culture is incompatible with American culture, except for hispanic Americans, American culture is better because it's American, so it's better, and hispanic people have a hard time assimilating except for Cubans, who assimilated very well, except for the language issue. But hispanic people generally don't assimilate very well. Like migrant laborers. Who aren't American in their value system because they don't care about saving (and possibly they want to return back to their own country because, you know, they're not looking to become American citizens at all and it actually is their own country...). What on earth are you talking about?