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Jaak

Winding up Faith Militant

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The members of Faith Militant did, like members of Night Watch, septons, maesters and Kingsguard, give vows to renounce marriage and individual landholding for life.

When Jaehaerys the Conciliator offered to spare any Faith Militant who yielded but dissolved the organization, were the ex-members allowed to marry if they had the desire and opportunity, or were they held to their oaths of celibacy?

How was Faith Militant paid for? Night Watch owns Old Gift and New Gift (and does not owe any service for them to anybody). Did Faith Militant as organization hold any lands? And what became of them after dissolution of Faith Militant?

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I would have to guess that former members of the Faith Militant were not held to their oaths of celibacy after that organization was dissolved. Individual members may have held themselves to the oath, but once the organization is gone so are it's rules, at least officially.

As for how they financed themselves, I assume it is the same way as the regular Faith received financing. Individual donations of money and land, taking control of money or land that members gave up to the Faith Militant upon joining. Kind of like most organized religions finance themselves in the real world.

These are just my opinions, of course. Not to be taken as the total sum of TRUTH. :)

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The members of Faith Militant did, like members of Night Watch, septons, maesters and Kingsguard, give vows to renounce marriage and individual landholding for life.

When Jaehaerys the Conciliator offered to spare any Faith Militant who yielded but dissolved the organization, were the ex-members allowed to marry if they had the desire and opportunity, or were they held to their oaths of celibacy?

How was Faith Militant paid for? Night Watch owns Old Gift and New Gift (and does not owe any service for them to anybody). Did Faith Militant as organization hold any lands? And what became of them after dissolution of Faith Militant?

My guess, and I am only guessing here, is that the Faith Militant lived on tithes. Probably donated at sword point. If they were tithed land, I have no guess as to what happened to it when they were dissolved.

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Gone to the crown, probably. What a nice stroke to get huge... tracts of land and get rid of an armed group not under your control all in one go. Personally I'd be interested to see more of the Faith Militant in past and present, as for the most part it seemed like a reformist movement á la Hussites, before Cersei did what comes naturally for her and essentially told them to have their own power and armies subject only to High Septon. Yaay?

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Maegor the Cruel actually dissolved the Faith Militant technically. They just don't cared about these laws. As the Targaryens were fighting a war against the Faith Militant during the reign of Maegor (and likely already during Aenys' reign, too) there might not have been that many young and healthy members of the Fighting Orders alive when Jaehaerys took the throne and started negotiations. Jaehaerys did take away the Faith's right to conduct trials. That indicates for me that Maegor actually did win the whole war, or, to be more precise, the factions of the Faith resisting the Targaryen rule were too exhausted to continue fighting against Jaehaerys.

Any surviving members of the Faith Militant likely retired to some of the greater septs, outliving the remainder of their lives in peace. And if there were really younger knights and former lords among them, Jaehaerys likely showed them mercy. Either giving them their lands backs, or awarding them other lands. Likely in the same way Joffrey tried to appease Barristan Selmy.

If I understand things correctly there was a broader rebellion against the Targaryen when Aegon died and Aenys took the throne. A rebellion lead by the Faith and some of the more pious Lords. But this broader movement was likely reduced to just the orders of the Faith Militant when Maegor outlawed them. I don't see Maegor not executing High Septons for resisting the Crown, so I really believe the Faith did not 'officially' support the Faith Militant against the Targaryen rule. Secretly the High Septons likely supported them, but not in a way the Targaryens could use against them. Maegor certainly would have burned the High Septon, and the Starry Sept along with all of Oldtown if he had proof about them backing a movement resisting his rule. And Maegor still had Balerion the Black Dread at his disposal. I don't see the Hightowers allowing the Faith endangering their city with their political maneuvering.

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Any surviving members of the Faith Militant likely retired to some of the greater septs, outliving the remainder of their lives in peace. And if there were really younger knights and former lords among them, Jaehaerys likely showed them mercy. Either giving them their lands backs, or awarding them other lands. Likely in the same way Joffrey tried to appease Barristan Selmy.

Disarming the Faith Militant and then sending them to septs as unarmed septons would still leave them as coherent bodies under leadership of Faith. They still had their military training, so getting new arms would have been too easy.

Sending them to join Night Watch would mingle them into a mass of northern Night Watch recruits. But still it would have been detrimental to the loyalty of Night Watch. And going North as still celibate sworn brothers may not have been sufficient inducement to drop the cause of the Seven.

A logical way to destroy the Faith Militant would have been to split it into individuals and let them acquire lands and wives they could lose by rebelling again.

If I understand things correctly there was a broader rebellion against the Targaryen when Aegon died and Aenys took the throne. A rebellion lead by the Faith and some of the more pious Lords. But this broader movement was likely reduced to just the orders of the Faith Militant when Maegor outlawed them. I don't see Maegor not executing High Septons for resisting the Crown, so I really believe the Faith did not 'officially' support the Faith Militant against the Targaryen rule. Secretly the High Septons likely supported them, but not in a way the Targaryens could use against them. Maegor certainly would have burned the High Septon, and the Starry Sept along with all of Oldtown if he had proof about them backing a movement resisting his rule. And Maegor still had Balerion the Black Dread at his disposal. I don't see the Hightowers allowing the Faith endangering their city with their political maneuvering.

There would have been a lot of smacking of foreheads in Reach after the Dornish defeated Aegon. If the Dornish could do it, why didn´t we think of it? Did dragonfire have any effect on Sunspear?

We know that an Osgrey Marshal of Northmarch spoke out against abolition of Faith Militant. He was not burnt to cinders - but the conciliation of Jaehaerys did not extend to giving his lordship back. All he had was Standfast. Coldmoat ended up with Webber lords, and even they did not have 12 lords and 100 landed knights as their bannermen - their position as the major overlord of northern Reach seems to have wound up with Rowans of Goldengrove.

As for the Crown - the Crown has not ended up with much land, at all. We never hear of Crown lands, royal castles or appointed castellans, with very few exceptions like Summerhall.

So whatever lands crown confiscated from rebel lords or institutions must have been given away to new lords, promptly.

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Disarming the Faith Militant and then sending them to septs as unarmed septons would still leave them as coherent bodies under leadership of Faith. They still had their military training, so getting new arms would have been too easy.

Well, I assume that as Jaehaerys is called 'the Conciliator' that he had already settled things with the Faith when he officially pardoned the rebels (if he did such a thing). It would have been difficult for the fighting septons among the Faith Militant (if such guys were among them) to settle somewhere and marry.

The fact that Jaehaerys' Hand Barth was a septon as well, indicates for me that Jaehaerys and the main faction of the Faith got along pretty well during his reign.

There would have been a lot of smacking of foreheads in Reach after the Dornish defeated Aegon. If the Dornish could do it, why didn´t we think of it? Did dragonfire have any effect on Sunspear?

Well, no. But Maegor is not Aegon, and Aegon seemed to have used his dragons only once against a castle (when he destroyed Harrenhal). And that was when he began his campaign and needed to establish his superiority to motivate people to defect to him.

No dragon ever attacked Sunspear, as far as I know. And as Sunspear is at the far south-east of Dorne, it would have been particularly difficult (if not outright dangerous) to fly with dragons down there - without having conquered all of Dorne before. I don't know how far dragons can fly without rest, but I honestly doubt that men could sit on dragonback for days without rest.

Oldtown on the other hand was part of the Targaryen Realm when the Faith Militant rebelled. And Maegor the Cruel certainly was a man capable of keeping a whole city hostage, or to be more precise, to burn it down if some members of its leadership (the Hightowers, the High Septon) openly joined a rebellion against the Iron Throne.

Oh, and the Osgreys did not lose all their lands during Maegor's reign. He was punished for his vocal support for the Faith Militant by Maegor, but it was Daeron the Good who took everything away from House Osgrey, and left him only a tower to die in. I suppose that there were houses around during the Faith Militant rebellion that were supporting the Faith Militant much more openly, and who really faced the full power of Maegor's wrath.

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Gone to the crown, probably. What a nice stroke to get huge... tracts of land and get rid of an armed group not under your control all in one go. Personally I'd be interested to see more of the Faith Militant in past and present, as for the most part it seemed like a reformist movement á la Hussites, before Cersei did what comes naturally for her and essentially told them to have their own power and armies subject only to High Septon. Yaay?

Actually rather than being like the Hussites I am inclined towards the Faith Militant being like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premonstratensian

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirsau_Reforms (for those who are more intellectual)

perhaps even

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorze_Abbey

this book here

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521126940/ref=oh_o02_s01_i01_details

is really interesting.

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As for the Crown - the Crown has not ended up with much land, at all. We never hear of Crown lands, royal castles or appointed castellans, with very few exceptions like Summerhall.


There is also Dragonstone, the village of Pennytree and the Crownlands. The Crown could also still be in possession of some of the lands of Longtable.

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I always assumed that they financed the Faith Militant similar to churches nowadays, with collections from the faiths followers. Wanting to give their money to help their religion grow and spread and defend all that is right that they believe in. They may have also financed it with a few collections taken at sword point if need be.

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I always felt a strong correlation between the Faith Militant and the Knights Templar. The Knights Templar often received donations and were willed sizable properties and moneys from wealthy patrons. Ultimately they became too powerful and the French government took them out.

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I always felt a strong correlation between the Faith Militant and the Knights Templar. The Knights Templar often received donations and were willed sizable properties and moneys from wealthy patrons. Ultimately they became too powerful and the French government took them out.

The King of France in collusion with the papacy, which was in the pocket of the French crown at the time, moved against the Templers. The lands and property of the Templers in France was seized and those of their leadership who were arrested went on trial for heresy and many burned at the stake. Outside of France the Templers had choices. Some joined the other military orders such as the Hospitallers. Some simply became secular lords, taking over the Templer properties in their own names with the acquiescence of local rulers. Others still joined non-military monastic orders or followed their own paths.

I did read one book (tinfoil at on) that postulated that due to Scotland being collectively excommunicated at the time of the suppression of the Templers (blame Edward I of England for that) the papal Bull dissolving the Templers had no legal force there and, if you believe these things, the The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon, is still technically a legal organisation there (tinfoil hat off).

We lack detail on the Faith Militant, its structure and the fate of its members and property. GRRM will be fully cognisant of the fate of the Templers and the likely paths taken by its members and I think that elements of their story will prove relevant. However, we know that GRRM never likes using the easy or obvious option and I think that he may also use the Teutonic Knights as a chunk of his model for the Faith Militant. Posters on other threads have already opined that the victory of Alexander Nevsky over the Teutonic Knights at the battle of Lake Peipus in 1242 were he lured them onto a frozen lake will be used as the model for Stannis to defeat the Bolton/Frey host outside Winterfell.

The Teutonic Knights were originally set up to introduce Roman Catholicism to what is now eastern Germany, Poland, the Baltic states and Belarus in the late 12th Century. Eventually there were no more pagans to convert. The order in its original form ceased to exist in 1525 with the last Grand Master becoming the first Duke of Prussia (and keeping the Iron Cross as his badge as well!). Other posters have alluded to former members of the Faith Militant becoming secular lords. I think that this will prove to be the case, after all leaders of the FM are likely to have been drawn from the younger sons of noble families and the chance of returning to their roots will have been far too tempting for many. It may be worth looking for evidence of castles/holdfasts that have evolved from former Sept like buildings or house sigils and/or words that incorporate overtly religious imagery.

All a bit rambling I know, but those are my thoughts.

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