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Wikileaks and Iraq: Take 2, What's in a Number?


lokisnow

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http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/war-logs.html

This leak deserves its own topic, it may be the biggest, most significant leak since Great American Hero Daniel Ellsberg released the Pentagon Papers.

First of all, 100,000 civilian deaths have been reported (via stringent and accurate scientific analysis and person to person surveying) since 2005, in 2006 the same survey team found a total body count of 650,000, and this was before Fallujah or the surge. Since this disagreed rather wildly with what Americans wanted to believe about Iraq and with what the official military position of a handful of thousands of casualties, it was treated as a rather ridiculous outlier and simply ignored in the United States.

This American Life did a story on this survey, take a listen for yourself, What's in a Number

and this map of the wikileaks deaths was posted in US Politics, but should, clearly, be reposted

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A Taliban spokesman in Afghanistan using the pseudonym Zabiullah Mujahid said in a telephone interview that the Taliban had formed a nine-member “commission” after the Afghan documents were posted “to find about people who are spying.” He said the Taliban had a “wanted” list of 1,800 Afghans and was comparing that with names WikiLeaks provided.

“After the process is completed, our Taliban court will decide about such people,” he said.

Mr. Assange defended posting unredacted documents, saying he balanced his decision “with the knowledge of the tremendous good and prevention of harm that is caused” by putting the information into the public domain. “There are no easy choices on the table for this organization,” he said.

Bloded mine. What a load of self righteous bullshit. As far as i can remember the Afghan documents didnt do much good at all, they didn't have anything earth shattering in them and all they did is give the Taliban the tools they need to blind allied intelligence. And by that i mean kill lots of people.

Usually i would have said even if he is a crazy egomaniac at least he is doing good work but now honestly i think i would just prefer it if any of these intelligence agencies just shut him down.

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Bloded mine. What a load of self righteous bullshit. As far as i can remember the Afghan documents didnt do much good at all, they didn't have anything earth shattering in them and all they did is give the Taliban the tools they need to blind allied intelligence. And by that i mean kill lots of people.

If you don't feel that lifting the veil of secrecy from things that are being done in your name is an unqualified good, I'm not sure what your definition of the word is. Also, see my link above - your accusation that the Taliban was able to use the info against US or Afghani forces is a lie.

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If you don't feel that lifting the veil of secrecy from things that are being done in your name is an unqualified good, I'm not sure what your definition of the word is.

Probably a sane one that involves that idea that maybe, just maybe, sometimes shit is classified for a reason.

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If you don't feel that lifting the veil of secrecy from things that are being done in your name is an unqualified good, I'm not sure what your definition of the word is.

What, its news that the US army kills a shit load of civilians and covers it up? I always assumed that was the nature of the beast. Also just what tangible good will this do ?

Will the US pack up and leave all that oil to the next warlord vicious enough to claim it.

Will the Army be more careful next time ? Will this offset the number of real fighter they are too afraid to kill ? Or the increased number of soldiers that die because the Army has gotten soft ?

Will those civilians they killed come back to life ?

Also, see my link above - your accusation that the Taliban was able to use the info against US or Afghani forces is a lie.

Not mine. I have very loosely followed this topic but the article linked seemed really well balanced and really i see no reason to doubt that the taliban wont try their best to use these documents to find spies.

Also you failed to provide proof that the Taliban can't use this information.

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Probably a sane one that involves that idea that maybe, just maybe, sometimes shit is classified for a reason.

I agree wholeheartedly that some things are classified for good reason, but I don't think that people are going to risk years of imprisonment to leak documents they don't believe the public should have access to. Covering up death tolls, and manipulation of information to make the government and its affairs look as clean as possible is to be expected, but the sad thing is that we live in a society where we expect and tolerate that shit from our governments.

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I agree wholeheartedly that some things are classified for good reason, but I don't think that people are going to risk years of imprisonment to leak documents they don't believe the public should have access to. Covering up death tolls, and manipulation of information to make the government and its affairs look as clean as possible is to be expected, but the sad thing is that we live in a society where we expect and tolerate that shit from our governments.

They just did though.

I mean, seriously, how many documents is in this leak? 400k? It's ludicrous to think whoever leaked them looked over each one to check what was in them. It sure didn't happen with the last leak, and that one was like a quarter of the size.

I mean, the last leak about Afghanistan contained nothing truly earth-shattering. It was just a huge pile of mostly mundane information. This one seems pretty similar.

Both leaks have looked more like someone just forwarded their entire inbox.

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Information is empowering and works both sides. Sure, the terrorist organizations can get these data. Same thing as the Iraqi people. If they want to use these information to change, even the littlest things (ie demanding a stop to torture - not that it's a little thing), in their corrupt government, then I say more power to them.

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I think that the wikileaks guy loves the attention more than anything. I mean, if there is nothing earth shattering in the leaks... then why hold international press conferences every time you feel the need to dangle some scraps of information? Wikileaks guy wants to be Mr. hero and expose all these sinister secret documents, yet hasn't exposed a single thing that has surprised anyone. You are either breaking a big story, or you're not. The news story behind wikileaks is the existence of wikileaks, what they actually provide is... well kind of underwhelming considering all the fuss. So with that in perspective, what is this guy really doing? He's not bringing anyone down. He's not changing the world. He's tooting his own horn. He's a douche bag.

Say what you will about propaganda, but the only possible consequences of anything he releases are negative. A lot of non earth shattering things are classified, and for good reason. I suspect that a lot of what is in the leaks are boring operational details, but that is the shit that can cause the most damage. Its no big secret that a lot of civilians died in Iraq, if anything wikileaks confirms that the vast majority of civilian deaths in Iraq were caused by sectarian violence, not by American military. So with that war winding down, putting a more exact tally does what exactly? It gets Assange in the news, thats what. And while we all worry about quantifying damage done, the real story is that anyone who has the time can sort through these documents and learn a good deal of information about US operations and piece that together into some useful tidbits. It seems silly, but Iraqi insurgents were known to dig through the trash of US bases looking for anything useful. Documents, names, addresses... anything they could get their hands on. Betcha they don't mind sifting through a stack of papers looking for gems. I don't know if one particular document might get someone killed, but taken together? All it does is help those who do not have our best interests in mind without actually doing anyone any good.

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I think that the wikileaks guy loves the attention more than anything. I mean, if there is nothing earth shattering in the leaks... then why hold international press conferences every time you feel the need to dangle some scraps of information? Wikileaks guy wants to be Mr. hero and expose all these sinister secret documents, yet hasn't exposed a single thing that has surprised anyone. You are either breaking a big story, or you're not. The news story behind wikileaks is the existence of wikileaks, what they actually provide is... well kind of underwhelming considering all the fuss. So with that in perspective, what is this guy really doing? He's not bringing anyone down. He's not changing the world. He's tooting his own horn. He's a douche bag.

Say what you will about propaganda, but the only possible consequences of anything he releases are negative. A lot of non earth shattering things are classified, and for good reason. I suspect that a lot of what is in the leaks are boring operational details, but that is the shit that can cause the most damage. Its no big secret that a lot of civilians died in Iraq, if anything wikileaks confirms that the vast majority of civilian deaths in Iraq were caused by sectarian violence, not by American military. So with that war winding down, putting a more exact tally does what exactly? It gets Assange in the news, thats what. And while we all worry about quantifying damage done, the real story is that anyone who has the time can sort through these documents and learn a good deal of information about US operations and piece that together into some useful tidbits. It seems silly, but Iraqi insurgents were known to dig through the trash of US bases looking for anything useful. Documents, names, addresses... anything they could get their hands on. Betcha they don't mind sifting through a stack of papers looking for gems. I don't know if one particular document might get someone killed, but taken together? All it does is help those who do not have our best interests in mind without actually doing anyone any good.

Are you joking? At the very minimum it points out what a failure our press is. More likely it point to deliberate collusion between the press and the government. While this isn't surprising info, it's info that we didn't know. It's info that the press should have been digging up. Should have been asking the hard questions.

Example - early in the war I think it was Cheney who said "We don't do body counts." Bullshit. If the US Taxpayer is footing the bill, they have a motherfucking right to know how much blood is on their hands. "Classified" is pussy bullshit and deserves to be called out.

The UN has called for investigations about torture. These documents reveal real, actual, war crimes. Fucking war crimes, committed by US forces. Torturing prisoners. Fucking NAZI shit. And we say "well it's not groundbreaking". SO WHAT?! If this is what it takes to get my mothershitting indictments then this is what it takes.

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im seriously goina to need some sleep sometimse this weekend.

Are you joking? At the very minimum it points out what a failure our press is. More likely it point to deliberate collusion between the press and the government. While this isn't surprising info, it's info that we didn't know. It's info that the press should have been digging up. Should have been asking the hard questions.

Example - early in the war I think it was Cheney who said "We don't do body counts." Bullshit. If the US Taxpayer is footing the bill, they have a motherfucking right to know how much blood is on their hands. "Classified" is pussy bullshit and deserves to be called out.

The UN has called for investigations about torture. These documents reveal real, actual, war crimes. Fucking war crimes, committed by US forces. Torturing prisoners. Fucking NAZI shit. And we say "well it's not groundbreaking". SO WHAT?! If this is what it takes to get my mothershitting indictments then this is what it takes.

:lol: Some people have an automatic beer-scooter that somehow gets them home unscathed, regardless of the level of intoxication. It amuses me to see that Tormund apparently has an equivalent function for libertarian arguments...

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Are you joking? At the very minimum it points out what a failure our press is. More likely it point to deliberate collusion between the press and the government. While this isn't surprising info, it's info that we didn't know. It's info that the press should have been digging up. Should have been asking the hard questions.

Example - early in the war I think it was Cheney who said "We don't do body counts." Bullshit. If the US Taxpayer is footing the bill, they have a motherfucking right to know how much blood is on their hands. "Classified" is pussy bullshit and deserves to be called out.

The UN has called for investigations about torture. These documents reveal real, actual, war crimes. Fucking war crimes, committed by US forces. Torturing prisoners. Fucking NAZI shit. And we say "well it's not groundbreaking". SO WHAT?! If this is what it takes to get my mothershitting indictments then this is what it takes.

It doesn't make any sense to say that our press is in collusion with the government and then in the same post discuss torture and war crimes allegations that were dug up and reported on by the press long before wikileaks came along. If the press were truly in collusion with the government, we probably wouldn't know about Abu Ghraib or waterboarding, or any of it. What the press probably does do is omit names and operational details when necessary. I would call that professionalism on their part, not collusion.

The point is not that some fucked up shit didn't happen. It did... the point is that we already knew that. There are already investigations. Not only that but, honestly, the American public does not care as much as it should. The daily occurances that make up the shit storm that is Iraq do get reported on and often never make it to the news back in the states because people at home are more concerned that The Situation is on Dancing with the Stars than they are that rocket killed a few Iraqi's at the bazaar. There are thousands of reporters in Iraq and Afghanistan. Thousands. Many of them are embedded with military units. When something really bad happens, it usually gets out. If you want to blame someone, blame the American people for not giving a shit. All the relevant information about the war was there. It was reported on. Whether or not people listened is another matter.

Wikileaks just dumps all that operational goodness into the mix, with a few names that responsible journalism would have withheld thrown in for good measure.

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Example - early in the war I think it was Cheney who said "We don't do body counts." Bullshit. If the US Taxpayer is footing the bill, they have a motherfucking right to know how much blood is on their hands. "Classified" is pussy bullshit and deserves to be called out.

T'was Gen. Tommy Franks in 2002.

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Wikileaks just dumps all that operational goodness into the mix, with a few names that responsible journalism would have withheld thrown in for good measure.

You keep saying this but all available evidence so far contradicts that, no?

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Are you joking? At the very minimum it points out what a failure our press is. More likely it point to deliberate collusion between the press and the government. While this isn't surprising info, it's info that we didn't know. It's info that the press should have been digging up. Should have been asking the hard questions.

Example - early in the war I think it was Cheney who said "We don't do body counts." Bullshit. If the US Taxpayer is footing the bill, they have a motherfucking right to know how much blood is on their hands. "Classified" is pussy bullshit and deserves to be called out.

The UN has called for investigations about torture. These documents reveal real, actual, war crimes. Fucking war crimes, committed by US forces. Torturing prisoners. Fucking NAZI shit. And we say "well it's not groundbreaking". SO WHAT?! If this is what it takes to get my mothershitting indictments then this is what it takes.

All the reports i've read so far state that it was the iraqi government/army that committed torture. The US failed to stop it.

There will be no indictments. You know that.

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