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Lady Blackfish

A Thread for Small Questions V

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Last unanswered question from thread iv, from jmastar:

Now that Gregor is "dead" and Sandor is presumably banished who would take over the Clegeign lands? Also, Why did Tywin forgo rank and give command of a chunk of his army during the battle against Bolton to Gregor? I know that he wanted that flank to break, but it still seems odd that he didnt have a battle hardened lord to appoint with orders to break on command.

Any other unanswered questions, feel free to restate.

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The vanguard is often given to a leading warrior, and not just based on rank. Loras Tyrell commanded Renly's van, Randyll Tarly commanded Mace's, and so on. Gregor was the fiercest knight Tywin had, and it was appropriate for him to hold the lead of the vanguard.

Commanding people to break sounds all well and good, but it's very difficult to retain such cohesion on the battlefield. Presumably Gregor was told to go all out and bash his own troops to pieces in hopes that Robb would be suckered into his plans, but otherwise, I think that's all the information that should have been shared. Trying to get him (or any man) to organize a retreat in the middle of a battle would be unlikely. Especially given the forces he had to hand: the sweepings of the west, untrained boys and undisciplined sellswords and wildlings from the Mountains of the Moon.

As to who takes over, good question. As far as we know, there are no other Cleganes. If a seat is left without an heir, then usually it's up to the lord that the seat was vassal to to dispense with it. I won't be surprised if we learn someone holding Casterly Rock has handed the Clegane lands and castle over to some loyal person...

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Guest Other-in-Law

I won't be surprised if we learn someone holding Casterly Rock has handed the Clegane lands and castle over to some loyal person...

Boy, talk about a poisoned gift! "Now you're your sure the Mountain's dead? Absolutely positive? You were there when they buried him? Where is that at, I'd like to go dig him up just to see for myself. I mean, he's not going to show up some night and be all pissed that I'm sleeping in his bed, right? Right?" etc.

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Sorry if this question has already been asked.

Why did Robert give Stannis Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End? I believe the official reason was that he needed somebody strong to rule Dragonstone because it was the traditional Targ. seat etc. but was there something else?

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Sorry if this question has already been asked.

Why did Robert give Stannis Dragonstone and Renly Storm's End? I believe the official reason was that he needed somebody strong to rule Dragonstone because it was the traditional Targ. seat etc. but was there something else?

No there wasn't. Stannis has complex lesser self-importance, which Mel used good.

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No there wasn't. Stannis has complex lesser self-importance, which Mel used good.

Well...yes there was, actually. Dragonstone was the traditional seat of the heir to the Iron Throne, and Joff wasn't born when Stannis was enfeoffed with the it, so in that sense he was being honoured as Robert's heir. On the other hand, Cersei backed up Stannis view that Robert intended it as a slight, but really Robert didn't have to give his brothers anything. GRRM has pointed out that he could just as easily have given Dragonstone to Joff and Storm's End to Tommen.

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I know there has been some speculation about Tywin not really getting down with Shae when Tyrion finds her in the room. In re-reading ACoK when Varys is showing Tyrion the underground passage ways to the brothels the first time he mentions that they were built for a Hand whose honor did not permit him to enter those types of establishments. Is Varys talking about Tywin here or is it assumed that these passages were built before Tywin was Hand?

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's specified anywhere who the Hand in question is.

It would be quite interesting if it were Tywin -- I hadn't thought of that.

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With Tywin dead, who is the current head of House Lannister?

I know Cersei is Lady of Casterly Rock, so she controls the seat.

Jaime is Tywin's eldest son but being LC of the Kingsguard I believe that somewhat disqualifies him from partaking in that sort of position.

Would it be Kevan Lannister then? Someone needs to lead that pack of lions afterall.

Followup:

I don't know much about heraldry but would there be one standard for the entire house or would certain lords have their own? At the siege of Riverrun I recall Jaime telling his squires to plant his standards, but I assume he would carry the standard of the Kingsguard - or a special one as its commander. Or maybe its a combination of Kingsguard/Lannister.

I think Daven Lannister would use the generic Lannister standard... (unless theres a Warden of the West standard). Did Tywin have a certain standard as head of the Lannisters? I doubt there's anything in the book to back up this question so I suppose if anyone has knowledge of how people did this in the medieval ages that would be just as useful. Thanks.

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Westeros heraldry is not exactly fleshed out. There seem to be no marks of cadency since people in Winterfell reacted surprised that Joffrey did not bear his fathers arms but rather impaled it with Lannister. Thus it is likely that all members of a house bear the same arms with some exceptions like Stannis including R'hollor's sigil or this one Lannister who quartered his arms with Darry to appease his new subjects. [someone on the forum had made some superb scroll of coat of arms where Robb had his own but I don't remember when Robb bore only the wolf's head.]

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Various Westerosi noblemen use personal arms, that are different from their house arms. Yes, that includes Robb who used just a wolf's head, though the general northern army banners still used the full running direwolf.

In many cases this is a way for younger sons to distinguish themselves from their brothers...Garlan Tyrell used two roses instead of one, and Loras used three, indicating their order as Mace's sons. But since these younger sons may end up founding their own branches of their family with their own castle...as Garlan seems about to do at Brightwater Keep...what were previously just personal arms can become the official arms of a new house. This happened with the green apple branch of the Fossoways, the origin of which was seen in the Hedge Knight.

But again, it's not just younger sons, sometimes the house head does it, and sometimes there's no real connection to the regular House arms. Two examples of this are Lord Pearse Caron who replaced the nightingales with a harp, and King Euron Greyjoy who has two crows supporting an iron crown over a red eyeball....no krakens in it at all.

In Joff's case, it wasn't so much the idea of combining arms at all that was the problem, it's that the royal Baratheon arms alone weren't good enough for him. He was actually changing the royal arms, by the time he became king, and Tommen has kept the divided arms. They've basically combined the Lannisters in as equal partners of the royal line which is very out of the ordinary, and overreaching. Imagine Cersei's reaction if Margaery influenced Tommen to divide the Baratheon stag with the Tyrell rose on the royal banner!

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With Tywin dead, who is the current head of House Lannister?

Would it be Kevan Lannister then? Someone needs to lead that pack of lions afterall.

Why would Kevan not succeed his brother? It only goes to women if there are no men. Kevan basically points this out to her when offering to let her rule the rock if she leave KL. Also I think Areys Oakheart (or someone at least) also wonders if Cersei would support Myrcella because it would mean that she could get the rock.

What gives?

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Why would Kevan not succeed his brother? It only goes to women if there are no men. Kevan basically points this out to her when offering to let her rule the rock if she leave KL. Also I think Areys Oakheart (or someone at least) also wonders if Cersei would support Myrcella because it would mean that she could get the rock.

What gives?

Not exactly:

A man's eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son, except in Dorne, where females had equal right of inheritance according to age.

After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man's brothers, say. Does a male sibling or a female child take precedence? Each side has a "claim."

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I've tried searching for it, but couldn't find a definiteive thread on the subject, but is there a "Symbolism and Motif's" thread anywhere on here? Something that talks about recurring imagery, numbers, etc?

In particular the recurrance of "3's" and "7's", as they show up A LOT in the series. (3 headed dragon, 3 eyed crow, 7 gods of the andals, 7 kingdoms) the list can literally go on and on.

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Are there any guesses as to what happened with Robb's and Grey Wind's bones? Is there any chance that they will make it to the Winterfell in the end?

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Are there any guesses as to what happened with Robb's and Grey Wind's bones? Is there any chance that they will make it to the Winterfell in the end?

Unless Walder Frey or Roose Bolton kept the mutilated bodies as a (gruesome) trophy, they probably ended up either in the river or in a mass grave with the rest of those who died during the Red Wedding.

With Twyin dead and his children inelligible to assume leadership of the Rock, Casterly Rock would go to Kevan Lannister, followed by his sons. If they should all die/give up the title, it would probably go next to Genna Lannister and her Husband Emmond Frey.

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