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tzanth

How will the TV series deal with R+L=J?

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I admit, I would be rather sad if we never hear of the three Kingsguard at the tower of joy, because while these things may not be important in terms of plot, they are important in terms of atmosphere. This is a key event that adds to the capital-R romanticism of the setting.

I disagree. Its a fulcrum point of the plot. Its an event that connects numerous strands of the story.

Lyanna was a reason for THE WAR after all. Her being in the Tower is the reason why Robert is sitting the throne today, why Eddard travels to Kingslanding to be a Hand and why he is tortured about promises.

Its the reason why Rheagarr wasnt there when Jaime slew Aerys. (indirectly alright?)

Its more then important for Jon and how the war against Others will develop and end, consequently.

And numerous other things

It connects to everything one way or another.

And its a extremely powerful moment on its own. All together is something most filmmakers would sell their mothers to get a chance to film.

Of course, you can break up all those things into separate events/memories, simply delete omit some and show the rest from different perspectives and characters but then youll end up with something infinitely weaker and inconsistent while with ToJ you can get all of it in one powerful strike that would linger and taunt and haunt the viewers as much as it does us.

A huge part of Songs is the past, history. And i dont believe you can film it without it.

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I disagree. Its a fulcrum point of the plot. Its an event that connects numerous strands of the story.

Lyanna was a reason for THE WAR after all. Her being in the Tower is the reason why Robert is sitting the throne today, why Eddard travels to Kingslanding to be a Hand and why he is tortured about promises.

All you are saying is that the ToJ scene is important. Not that they have to show it in S1. Everyone agrees that it would be nice to see it.

Saying something is "Infinitely weaker and inconsistent" without seeing it (if it even exists) is just silly. :lol:

The series is certainly not ignoring history. That's another strawman.

Your real complaint is probably that they may not religiously recreate the books. How boring.

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If you have nothing but strawman arguments to contribute in pathetic attempt to invent excuses for decisions which havent even been made - i suggest you find something better to do.

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tSK, are you the guy that used to play Bootleggers? Long time, no see if so. :P

Since you are criticising decisions which may or may not have been made, kind of hard for me to avoid defending those potential decisions. Although, my defence was mainly that you were reacting very badly to a decision that may or may not have been made. And now you are attacking me for defending a decision which hasn't been made. Funny stuff.

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I disagree. Its a fulcrum point of the plot. Its an event that connects numerous strands of the story.

Lyanna was a reason for THE WAR after all. Her being in the Tower is the reason why Robert is sitting the throne today, why Eddard travels to Kingslanding to be a Hand and why he is tortured about promises.

Its the reason why Rheagarr wasnt there when Jaime slew Aerys. (indirectly alright?)

Its more then important for Jon and how the war against Others will develop and end, consequently.

And numerous other things

It connects to everything one way or another.

And its a extremely powerful moment on its own. All together is something most filmmakers would sell their mothers to get a chance to film.

Of course, you can break up all those things into separate events/memories, simply delete omit some and show the rest from different perspectives and characters but then youll end up with something infinitely weaker and inconsistent while with ToJ you can get all of it in one powerful strike that would linger and taunt and haunt the viewers as much as it does us.

A huge part of Songs is the past, history. And i dont believe you can film it without it.

History is extremely important in the books, but very little of it is shown, most of what we know is related through dialogue or characters' thoughts. The Tower of Joy scene we get in the book isn't even much, just some brief descriptions and a little bit of dialogue, and it's not even necessarily accurate since people don't usually dream things as they actually happened. And Lyanna being in the tower is certainly A reason why some things happened, and is connected to a few things, but it is not necessarily a central reason, and certainly not the only reason (and the TOJ scene basically happens after everything already went down, so if you need to show some of the backstory, there have to be other scenes that are more important). You could pluck at a dozen different strands that might alter the events that led up to the war: if Jaime is never made Kingsguard, for example, he wouldn't have been there to kill Aerys (though how important that is in of itself is debatable; it's more important to Jaime's path than anything else, but you brought it up), and, more importantly, Tywin might not have resigned as Hand and would have been able to attempt to stop Aerys's actions that led to rebellion. Tyrion's birth is another thing, since that resulted in his mother's death, and his mother was no longer around to monitor Cersei and Jaime, which allowed their incestuous relationship to blossom, which led to Cersei persuading Jaime that they should try to get him inducted into the Kingsguard. Howland Reed being at the tournament at Harenhal is another big thing, as it (in the minds of some readers) led Lyanna to don armor and ride in the tourney, and led Aerys to tell Rhaegar to discover the mystery knight's identity, which led Rhaegar to find Lyanna, which led to him absconding with her. Anyway, I'd say if there was any past even that was the "fulcrum" and needed to be shown, it was the Tournament at Harenhal.

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All you are saying is that the ToJ scene is important. Not that they have to show it in S1. Everyone agrees that it would be nice to see it.

Since the scene exists, now, only in Ned's (and Howland Reed's) memories, it may be hard to show the scene in flashback (or at least a bit cumbersome) if it's not as someone's memories. Everyone else who was there who can remember those events is dead besides those two. If we don't get it in the first season, we might have to wait until Howland Reed pops up in the story...assuming he ever actually does!

Sure, flashbacks can be done that aren't memories of someone in the current plot, but it often makes it a lot harder to justify their presence in a story without their being a part of someone's memories.

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Since the scene exists, now, only in Ned's (and Howland Reed's) memories, it may be hard to show the scene in flashback (or at least a bit cumbersome) if it's not as someone's memories. Everyone else who was there who can remember those events is dead besides those two. If we don't get it in the first season, we might have to wait until Howland Reed pops up in the story...assuming he ever actually does!

True. Showing it via Howland Reed is probably the easiest alternative. Or have the Reed children tell the story to Bran but we'd still be missing the "promise me" part, unless they were a bit creative.

Anyway, I'd say if there was any past even that was the "fulcrum" and needed to be shown, it was the Tournament at Harenhal.

True. More arguments when we wait for S3 (hopefully). :P

History will feature prominently anyhow. Viewers wouldn't understand the dynamics of the Baratheon/Lannister/Stark/Targaryen relationship without knowing the history. I think they'll present a lot of it via dialogue but a few key flashbacks would be ideal. (ToJ in S1, Jaime's story in S2, Harrenhal in S3 and more Jaime in S4).

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I think even if the theory isn't true, it's still important to have those clues in there, because the mystery and possibility of being led along are just as engaging. It's just good storytelling. In a mystery novel that's adapted to film or television, the director doesn't find out from the author whodunnit before reading the rest of the book(s), only to then omit all of the false leads in the adaptation so as to save screen time. :/I think this should be approached in the same way: it is an important, mystery element to the story, and regardless if the theory is true or not I think there should still be hints that might suggest it.

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Although The Smiling Knight has upped the douche-quotient in most of these trailer reaction threads, he is right on this.

I think the ToJ scene is one of the two or three most pivotal in AGoT, and if I were magically involved in the writing or production staff, I couldn't envision not having it or referencing it in some form. And its not as if you need to film a fight scene for it...I'd think it'd almost work in film form exactly as written.

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I think the ToJ scene is one of the two or three most pivotal in AGoT, and if I were magically involved in the writing or production staff, I couldn't envision not having it or referencing it in some form.

Hmm. Not sure. If you look at aSoIaF as a whole, it is important, but when you look at S1, it has little real signifiicance. As in, it doesn't lead anywhere in aGoT. The producers have to concentrate on getting S1 right before worrying about S7 or S8.

There hopefully will be a few clues in GoT anyhow. Just contrasting (for example) Viserys story about Rhaegar's love for the Stark woman with Robert's story about her kidnap and rape. The fact that Jon doesn't know his mother. They are easy enough to do. Having full sets will be more challenging. We can but hope. :)

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I could see the ToJ dealt with quite briefly and cheaply e.g.

[Previous Scene]

FADE TO BLACK

Lyanna (VO): Promise me Ned

TOWER OF THE HAND, Ned wakes suddenly.

Ned: (whispers) Lyanna.

Maester: My Lord?

Ned: I dreamt of the Tower again.

Maester: Tower, my Lord?

Ned: It is no matter.

We know what it refers to, the TV audience is intrigued enough to wonder. No money spent. Obviously they would do it better than that, but you get the idea.

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Hmm. Not sure. If you look at aSoIaF as a whole, it is important, but when you look at S1, it has little real signifiicance.

Well, no, but the best way to fit it in, to my mind, is as part of Ned's experiences in S1 -- and opinion that is, err, difficult to do down the line...

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Well, no, but the best way to fit it in, to my mind, is as part of Ned's experiences in S1 -- and opinion that is, err, difficult to do down the line...

It is clearly the best way to show it. We've been agreeing on that point from the start. But turning a series of books into a TV series is a series of compromises. They don't have an infinite budget and there is a huge amount of things to set up in GoT. For example, we were worried about Walder Frey not appearing until recently. Given that the ToJ isn't very important over the first 3 books, I could see them not filming it.

Breakspear post above is one way to take a low cost approach to the scene. The Reeds can also detail what happened in later seasons (if they happen).

But again, I do hope to see it in S1. But there will be tons of other stuff to enjoy either way. :)

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History is extremely important in the books, but very little of it is shown, most of what we know is related through dialogue or characters' thoughts. The Tower of Joy scene we get in the book isn't even much, just some brief descriptions and a little bit of dialogue, and it's not even necessarily accurate since people don't usually dream things as they actually happened. And Lyanna being in the tower is certainly A reason why some things happened, and is connected to a few things, but it is not necessarily a central reason, and certainly not the only reason (and the TOJ scene basically happens after everything already went down, so if you need to show some of the backstory, there have to be other scenes that are more important). You could pluck at a dozen different strands that might alter the events that led up to the war: if Jaime is never made Kingsguard, for example, he wouldn't have been there to kill Aerys (though how important that is in of itself is debatable; it's more important to Jaime's path than anything else, but you brought it up), and, more importantly, Tywin might not have resigned as Hand and would have been able to attempt to stop Aerys's actions that led to rebellion. Tyrion's birth is another thing, since that resulted in his mother's death, and his mother was no longer around to monitor Cersei and Jaime, which allowed their incestuous relationship to blossom, which led to Cersei persuading Jaime that they should try to get him inducted into the Kingsguard. Howland Reed being at the tournament at Harenhal is another big thing, as it (in the minds of some readers) led Lyanna to don armor and ride in the tourney, and led Aerys to tell Rhaegar to discover the mystery knight's identity, which led Rhaegar to find Lyanna, which led to him absconding with her. Anyway, I'd say if there was any past even that was the "fulcrum" and needed to be shown, it was the Tournament at Harenhal.

Ah, but Lyanna is the prime reason for the war. There cannot be any disagreement about it.

Not only she is a connection to the past in that sense but to the present of Jon situation (more then most probably), she is the reason Robert is the man he is and she is a significant influence on Eddard Stark and his character.

Not to mention being a direct link to the prophecy of the Prince who was promised and the whole Others thing.

Tournament in Harenhall is significant but not so much as ToJ and it can be too revisited later on in the story through Jojen and Maera as they tell it to Bran.

Even though it can only be a story told and work just as well.

After all its "only" a story how Rhaegar and Lyanna met.

As to the ToJ flashback i dont see what would be complicated about it.

It should be inserted in the story exactly where it is in the book as a nightmarish short sequence:

- Ned`s seven arrives in front of the tower.

(the area is a dream, unclear and dark nightmare, twisting like in a dust storm)

- exchange with ghosts of three Kingsguard,

(they are literally ghosts, features obscured, murky, shifting in the wind, maybe only the faces are seen clearly in brief glimpses, or not, showing only helmets)

- Ned says his "No, now it ends" (-edit- oupsy) and pulls out his sword. He and his group move toward Kingsguard.

- cut back to Ned in reality squirming in fever. We never see the fight play out.

-cut back into the dream, dead everywhere, Ned is wounded and propped up by Howland Reed as they stumble toward a looming tower.

-flower petals start to fall around them.

-Ned enters the room alone, stumbling-

Blood everywhere

-he falls to his knees by the bloody bed, catches her hand

- the words "promise me Ned." are heard as the world starts to spin with blood and petals.

(you can show Lyanna`s face or not)

-Ned wakes up in pain, still holding - a bloody hand that disappears or empty air, optionally. he may repeat "promise" once more before he curls up on the floor.

(he is in black cells at this point)

All you need is actors, very short time required to shoot the exchange with Dayne and Ned finding Lyanna. The rest is cheap stage props and simple CGI.

Each scene can be shot from additional angle or distance or two and used for prior shorter flashbacks Ned has. Or you can cut it, show a bit or two then unload it whole when its right. Or you can just do it all at once.

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You don't even need to show it as specters and dreamscapes, it can be done just as a straight memory of Ned's, that would be even easier to shoot, but on the whole the imagery presented would work - the fight, the blue rose petals, the blood, Lyanna's voice and maybe her face. Not only is it a key scene for the whole story, I think it's very evocative and powerful. I mean, look how much we are all talking about it here for pages and pages on end, and this isn't the first long discussion I've been a part of about it, both on this board and with friends. Though a flashback, it's one of the key scenes in the series and one that people can't seem to get out of their heads. I think that's partly because there's so much mystery surrounding it, but also because it's so damn mythic.

I'm reminded of when I was a little kid after "Empire Strikes Back" had come out and all the speculation about Darth Vader claiming that Luke was his son. One of the theories I remember discussing with one of my summer camp councilors was that Obi Wan, Vader, Luke's Father and all the Jedi. were really clones of each other (the Clone Wars) and that Vader was just twisting things by claiming he was Luke's father when really Luke was the son of an identical clone of him. We speculated that Obi Wan was really 0-B1, Ben's clone number/letter designation. Of course that's now how it turned out to be, but those speculations over the mystery of it all had us going for years until Jedi came out. This is very much like that and kind of the 'grist to the mill' of keeping interest in a story like this alive.

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Ah, but Lyanna is the prime reason for the war. There cannot be any disagreement about it.

Well, there can be disagreement about anything; I don't know that I would agree that Lyanna is the prime reason for the war, or if you can even narrow it down to one person or one reason, but if I would I would say that Rhaegar is as important as Lyanna, maybe more, and that Aerys is more important than either of them. Lyanna and Rhaegar couldn't have reasonably expected their actions to lead to all-out rebellion, and they most likely wouldn't have if Aerys hadn't killed off both the lord and heir of the greatest house in the north, as well as the lords and heirs of a few of the Starks' vassal houses. Then he demanded that Robert and Eddard be surrendered to the crown on top of that (nobody in their right mind would've submitted willingly to that at that point). Add to that, he estranged the Lannisters before any of this went down. I don't know if anybody can be considered more responsible for starting the rebellion than him.

Not only she is a connection to the past in that sense but to the present of Jon situation (more then most probably), she is the reason Robert is the man he is and she is a significant influence on Eddard Stark and his character.

Not to mention being a direct link to the prophecy of the Prince who was promised and the whole Others thing.

Tournament in Harenhall is significant but not so much as ToJ and it can be too revisited later on in the story through Jojen and Maera as they tell it to Bran.

Even though it can only be a story told and work just as well.

After all its "only" a story how Rhaegar and Lyanna met.

Well, I just don't agree that ToJ is more important than the Tourney at Harenhal, and Rhaegar and Lyanna were both at Harenhal, and Rhaegar meets all of the same points that you mentioned for Lyanna, so having both of them would certainly be more significant than just one (Harnehal also has Eddard and Brandon, Oberyn and Elia Martell, Robert and Aerys). And there are other past scenes that I would consider more important and cooler than ToJ: Robert and Rhaegar on the Trident, Jaime killing Aerys and then being found on the throne by Eddard, the Tragedy at Summerhall (not quite as directly related to the present, I know, but there are connections, and it would be cool to see Egg and Dunk). The most important thing from ToJ as far as the narrative is concerned is Lyanna's "Promise me, Ned." They could insert that into a few different episodes, just having Eddard dreaming or remembering being at Lyanna's side as she whispers it, then either have Eddard wake up or come out of a daydream. Anything else could be mentioned in dialogue; in fact, isn't it even spoken in the books somewhere that Howland Reed saved Eddard's life?

-Ned wakes up in pain, still holding - a bloody hand that disappears or empty air, optionally. he may repeat "promise" once more before he curls up on the floor.

(he is in black cells at this point)

I think Eddard is in the Tower of the Hand, having a fever dream and recovering from his broken leg, when the ToJ dream is described in the books. They could easily change it to the black cells in the show, of course.

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The Kingsguard aren't ghosts in the book. If they do show the ToJ scene, i'd like to see the Sword of the Morning. His mystique is very well described.

And again, i'm not going to say its super complicated to show. But it is an extra thing to do amongst a huge list of things to do. I'm sure they don't want to use cheap props/CGI either.

It is one of the most famous scenes in aGoT, so it has that going for it. But everytime I think about it, I can't escape the feeling that it isn't crucial to the first 3 books (since they form an opening arc).

Edited to add: And i'd agree with you Jack Sparrow. GRRM is too good a writer to have just one pivotal moment. There are layers on top of layers.

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Other than the theorising done on boards like this, do we know whether Jon's parentage is at all important to the story?

If not then whatever fun GRRM has been having dropping red herrings all over the place can simply be left on the cutting room floor. There's no room or time for side-tracking irrelevant distractions in a TV series.

If Jon's parentage is important (be it R+L=J or not) then the hints and clues will be there, but not any more obvious or revealing than in the books. However being in the series will re-invigorate discussion around what his parentage is and how it will play out at the conclusion to the whole saga.

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