Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

tzanth

How will the TV series deal with R+L=J?

Recommended Posts

Oh tSK. Yes, we are likely to see Gregor marauding around the Riverlands. Those kind of actions are a lot easier to show than big battle scenes. They just feature a small set of people after all. And it's not as complicated to choreograph since there aren't complicated fight scenes.

Build the Riverlands? Seriously? What do you think the Riverlands are.

There are various ways to film flashbacks. I'm not a big fan of jumping back and forth between the flashback and story. I don't seem to be the only one.

And only the Lannisters and probably Varys and LF knew the precise truth of what happened to the Targaryens. There were rumours but they involved thinking Gregor killed both kids. Ned certainly didn't know.

Anyhow, your problem remains that while everyone would like to see flashbacks if done well, you haven't shown why it's essential. Vague concepts like being "essential to their motivation" doesn't tell us a whole lot. You've never explained what exactly we'd lose.

Oh yes. We wouldn't know how big a monster Gregor is but knowing he may have raped anyone should be clue enough.

As for the Big Rebellion Question. That's easy. Lyanna was kidnapped and Ned's father plus brother were killed. Explaining that isn't complicated at all. TSK'd flashbacks generally don't help explain anything complicated. A man who burns his brother is a monster? Wow. Revelation. We would never have figured that out except by seeing it on screen.

TSK insists we are all wrong. And maybe we are. But he certainly is unlikely to change anyone's mind. His debating style is interesting though. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elia's death seems easily hinted at rather than shown. Someone could simply show concern for his latest assignment because of what happened with Elia and her poor children. The disgust and horror of the subject should show in the actors well enough to continue building his reputation until it climaxes with his shameless confession.

Flashbacks should (generally) be limited to events that

1. one of our POV characters were there for (or has been otherwise established as fact).

2. have an impact on the events in the current plot.

2. are visually interesting enough that the time isn't better spent providing the same information through dialogue between our characters in the 'present day'.

There are also extenuating circumstances with certain events that mean the information can't be established through dialogue. Ned's viewpoint clearly suggests that he thinks Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar but there is no one for him to tell that to, or to tell about how he died, or hint that it doesn't make sense that the Kingsguard were guarding her rather than their King and the Crown Prince.

Now based on my pre-reqs, Sandor's maiming probably doesn't need a flashback. As long as the trauma of it is clear, the fact that it was his brother and that it has left him with a fear of fire are all established some other way, it is probably one that can be avoided. I trust that the writers have that ability, the only question is if it is a priority for them to use the time to do it. If not, then a 5 second flashback is far better than ignoring it and just seeing the results in the plot without the background.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elia's death seems easily hinted at rather than shown.

When Gregor is introduced, Ned (or somebody else) can mention how there are rumours that he killed the Targaryen kids and Elia. I'd be very surprised to see more of what happened before Gregor meets Oberyn.

1. one of our POV characters were there for (or has been otherwise established as fact).

I'd agree with that too. If only because we would only have flashbacks for the most important characters. People like Sandor and Gregor are important background characters but they aren't the key characters. I think we only learn that Sandor is afraid of fire at the end of aCoK when he faces fire. I think that should work fine.

It is interesting that there does seem to be flashbacks in the clip last night. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless youre proposing that they build all of riverlands, hire hundreds of extras and film Gregor burning it all. Not to mention CGI etc.

This seems to be the crux of the issue here. You are mistakenly under the impression that information must be conveyed in the most direct method possible.

There are no chapters detailing Gregor burning and sacking the Riverlands, the information is very patchy. Despite this, we are given a good impression of what is happening through Arya and through second-hand accounts. In fact, this method is much more effective at conveying the information realistically because this is what happens in the real world. You are not present at every significant event going on around you, and yet you are aware of them. You are not directly involved in the decisive character-forming events of the people in your life and yet you form strong opinions about their characters.

Sublety is key. GRRM uses it throughout the series to give us backstory, character infomation and intrigue. It makes us think about what we're reading, question the information we're given, and keeps the mystery alive. I would go so far as to say that he didn't decide not to show the rape of Elia because his medium wasn't a visual one, he did it because it was more effective not to show it. It would be pointless and tacky.

From reading your posts in this thread I can guarantee that the show you are looking for will not be made. If I'm wrong, I'll be very disappointed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have one problem with this whole thing...

First I'd like to say that I believe in the R+L=J theory.

But HBO and other companies that do novel adaptions are known to change things...I look at Pillars of the Earth as a good example, so much stuff that happens in the novel at the end were left out or changed in the show.

For the sake of argument, lets say this theory is right and the show goes a full 7 seasons - 7 years. By the time we reach the 7th season and the Others are attacking and shit is hitting the fan, Dragons are flying and Jaime is fighting along side the good guys and the Hound is married to Sansa somehow and all together things are playing out like people hoped from reading the books.

Will we even have the 6th book by then? Seeing things in the show would spoil the books, and if theories are proven right on the show will the be the same in the books? Will GRRM change the books? Will HBO change things for the sake of keeping the novels different and some secrets safe until GRRM writes them? Will R+L=J be revealed in the show before the books? Can GRRM finish the series before the show ends? If so, then there is no problem with the show including these things...but if not...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can GRRM finish the series before the show ends?

Wow I never even considered that, but its a frightening prospect.

I have to believe that the 6th book will be out in 6 years, with the 7th at least mostly laid out, so they could still do the show pretty close to the novel, if by some craziness it gets to 7 seasons before the 7th book. In principle I'd want to wait for the book, but in practice I don't think I could help watching the show :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will we even have the 6th book by then? Seeing things in the show would spoil the books, and if theories are proven right on the show will the be the same in the books? Will GRRM change the books? Will HBO change things for the sake of keeping the novels different and some secrets safe until GRRM writes them? Will R+L=J be revealed in the show before the books? Can GRRM finish the series before the show ends? If so, then there is no problem with the show including these things...but if not...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

We should have the 6th book. But anyhow, GRRM has already told D&D (the show runners) how the series will end, so its not really an issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They wont. Its still only a theory. IF it actually happens (and we may have to wait for years before we even find out in the books), then they will deal with. Assuming the series is still going at that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They wont. Its still only a theory. IF it actually happens (and we may have to wait for years before we even find out in the books), then they will deal with. Assuming the series is still going at that point.

The producers know how the story ends and all the secrets, if R+L=J is true, then they will hint at it, probably. Or, in anticipation that fans of the show will go online, find this forum and all the rampant theorizing, they might just make it blatant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The producers know how the story ends and all the secrets, if R+L=J is true, then they will hint at it, probably. Or, in anticipation that fans of the show will go online, find this forum and all the rampant theorizing, they might just make it blatant.

If by blatant you mean effectively confirm that R+L=J is fact then I disagree. GRRM will want the reveal to be his and his alone. Personally I think R+L=J is more likely than not. But I don't see any explicit need to put hints into season 1. The truth in this regard must be able to be revealed independant of Ned, therefore dropping hints while Ned is still alive isn't necessary.

I think there is a real risk of the show catching up to the books. But really if that risk starts looking like a reality then the screws will really be on GRRM to pull finger and complete the books. Most likely Book 6 will be out before season 6, but book 7 vs season 7 could be very tight. Unless GRRM is willing to lose control of the story he'll come through in the end.

If the show is very popular is there the chance that seasons will be 9 months apart rather than 12? That would mean only 4 years until we're knocking on the door of season 6, and 5 years for season 7. That's not long away at all. Lets hope books 6 and 7 don't have their own versions of the Meereenese knot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If the show is very popular is there the chance that seasons will be 9 months apart rather than 12?

Nah. I've never seen examples of that. And some shows have been very popular and a lot easier to make. This season has taken almost 5 months to shoot but there were several months of pre-production/casting etc. And now we are going to have several months of post-production. Trying to reduce the wait between seasons would make everything very rushed. Its good to recharge the batteries.

What has happened before, is that a new season has waited for more than 12 months. That might happen at some stage. On the other hand, given the weather in Northern Ireland, its always best to shoot from around Jun to Nov (rather than too far into winter). There are signs that they are going to start shooting a little earlier than July if we get a S2. That was the plan originally but initial pre-production took longer than expected. That suggests that they could keep shooting in Jun-Nov and put on the show in the Spring.

HBO seems to have 4 major time slots. Big Love/Luck at the beginning to the year, GoT in spring, True Blood in the summer and Boardwalk Empire at the end of the year. These are presumably not going to overlap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone mentioned it before - that HBO is in talks for the second season already so they can fill in the time slot left by Big Love, which is in it's last season. April 2011 will have Game of Thrones starting season 1, then if they can get a 2nd season ready for Winter 2012...

That would give them:

Fall - Boardwalk Empire

Winter - Game of Thrones

Spring - Treme

Summer - True Blood

That's not including other 30 minute shows like Californiacation, Entourage, Curb Your Enthusiasm, etc.

The 4 shows above though would give HBO 4 solid shows year round and a reason for people to want to purchase HBO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. This seems most likely to me. I don't expect people to figure out who Jon's parents are after watching GoT, unlike reading aGoT. Given we haven't found out for sure yet after 4 books, hinting at it isn't that important. They'll have plenty other things to focus on in S1.

The only flashback (really a dream) that I think we may see is Ned v the Kingsguard. The series is complicated enough without flashing back all over the place. And we have had no hints that they are doing any. For example, the draft pilot script had none.

I think that if they include enough of Lyanna's story in dialogue, a large handful of "Promise me Ned" moments, and Ned refusing to talk about Jon repeatedly, some viewers will guess.

Don't forget MOST READERS did not pick up R+L=J on their own. And many have yet to be CONVINCED (myself included) that it's true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was one of those that didn't pick up on it till I joined the forums and saw all the connections...

But seriously, what else would a blue flower on the wall mean (in Dany's vision in CoK)?

And why would 3 KG be guarding Lyanna Stark? WHY!??!

I don't want to get in a discussion about it again, but seriously, think about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People have thought about it. It's quite simple to explain things such as why there were three Kingsguard at the tower of joy: Rhaegar ordered them to be there. As George has said, they would do as they were ordered, regardless of what was going on in the greater realm. Why would Rhaegar order them do that? Any number of reasons ... including, yes, that Lyanna was carrying his child, but that's not necessarily the only one.

So... yeah, people have thought about it. It's a theory which remains to be proven, and I say this as someone very firmly in the R+L=J camp for many years at this stage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget MOST READERS did not pick up R+L=J on their own. And many have yet to be CONVINCED (myself included) that it's true.

I think the fact that most people miss it is actually an argument in its favor. If it were even slightly obvious, I would expect it to be subverted.

I remember being very surprised when I was informed, even though years and forum discussions later it seems very obvious. I wonder what percentage of readers still don't know. When it finally does get revealed, I'd bet the majority of his readers will say "whoa where did THAT come from".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone mentioned it before - that HBO is in talks for the second season already so they can fill in the time slot left by Big Love, which is in it's last season. April 2011 will have Game of Thrones starting season 1, then if they can get a 2nd season ready for Winter 2012...

I'm rather skeptical of that to be honest. :) Sounds like wishful thinking. Just because they are looking at a possible S2 doesn't mean they are actually going to commit to it anytime soon. This time last year they were looking at a possible S1 but we didn't get the green light for a few more months.

And your list ignores David Milch's new show Luck. Given its cast, it seems like it is an idea replacement for Big Love.

It just doesn't make sense to me that they would rush a production like GoT. Its probably the most difficult to shoot.

I think that if they include enough of Lyanna's story in dialogue, a large handful of "Promise me Ned" moments, and Ned refusing to talk about Jon repeatedly, some viewers will guess.

Probably. Most wouldn't though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not including other 30 minute shows like Californiacation, Entourage, Curb Your Enthusiasm, etc.

Californiacation is showtime...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've said before and I will say it again. I am convinced they won't give any hints of R+L=J during S1. The showrunners have already enough plates to juggle with. They have enough worries trying to find ways to feed the audience with a huge cast and complex story without getting them confused. They're gonna stick with the "lannisters are vile and they are conspiring to get the Iron Throne; Ned steps up to stop them" dynamic. They will treat Dany as a future power house who'll be very important in the future but now you just get to know her and the Others like a lingering threat.

They are trying to find an audience, one who doesn't know what the books are about, so they'll be very careful to not overwhelm them with too much information, too many things going on. They're simplifying things. They have even taking the Tullys out of the picture for this first season. They are not gonna bother hinting about a secret that has no influence whatsoever in the ongoing plots. Sorry, I can't see it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×