Sniffing Sister's and Mother's Panties

[Lord O' Bones]

Arrested for the first time. :unsure:

I am a fine, upstanding member of society. Now. But and how!

blah, fuck it, maybe it's something wrong with me that i can't wrap my head around these silly ass 'advice' threads. There is something definitely wrong with me for posting in the damn thing. But this is getting ridiculous.

I hear you, and I don't hear you. These are grownups using current technology to interact. You may not be comfortable sharing these things in this venue, but these people already have parents.

[zollo]

Fella, I know i'm not alright. But i would never post this kinda shit about my son or grandson on the goddamn internet. I seriously doubt anyone would be comfortable with their parent divulging this type of information about their child to a bunch of strangers.

Your son should be handling this shit in house. Not your daughter, not his mom, not a fucking counselor (well, maybe a counselor, of which i don't think anyone on here is). Your son.... his dad, needs to be making these decisions though. How would have come to any other conclusion than that? You needed to come onto an internet forum dedicated to GRRM to get that?

blah, fuck it, maybe it's something wrong with me that i can't wrap my head around these silly ass 'advice' threads. There is something definitely wrong with me for posting in the damn thing. But this is getting ridiculous.

Well, I was just taking the piss (it happens), but if you've not read the whole thread you'll have missed that the son making decisions, dealing with it in-house etc is not really an option given the rather screwed up relationship dynamics in the first place. In other words - the original thread topic is, as far as problems go, probably the least important issue at hand.

I wouldn't post anything personal on here either (I am a private person and have no problems whatsoever anyway) but surely it is not impossible to understand that sometimes people need to air stuff to a party that is not deeply involved in a given issue? Sure, some advice will be put forward as well. However, most people aren't retards and are perfectly capable of sifting through such information to *further* inform their mind. I say further as the net is just one of many places to get / find advice - I think you'll find that the vast majority of people use it as one problem-solving tool among many and not as the end all be all for potentially life altering decisions (youtube comment people don't count).

[peterbound]

I am a fine, upstanding member of society. Now. But and how!

I hear you, and I don't hear you. These are grownups using current technology to interact. You may not be comfortable sharing these things in this venue, but these people already have parents.

Interaction is one thing. Airing this kind of laundry is another. Could you imagine how mortified you would be if you found out your GRANDPA of all people was getting on the internet and asking for advice on the time you sniffed your sister's panties? This is the type of conversation that needs to happen face to face, with trusted friends and professionals. Not a bunch of witty yahoos who like SF/F.

Just me though. I'll go back and read the 100's of responses on here to see about this 'family dynamic' but I can't see this as anything other than the dad needing to step up, have the 'talk', and tell the kid not to do that shit again.

[Balefont]

blah, fuck it, maybe it's something wrong with me that i can't wrap my head around these silly ass 'advice' threads. There is something definitely wrong with me for posting in the damn thing. But this is getting ridiculous.

This isn't just The Internet. What we have here is special. It's more a community. A wonderful, diverse community that is relatively polite and well behaved. It's no wonder people will choose to come here for advice. There's a huge population of experience to draw from and the topics are usually things people don't feel comfortable discussing with their friends or family.

[Lord O' Bones]

Interaction is one thing. Airing this kind of laundry is another. Could you imagine how mortified you would be if you found out your GRANDPA of all people was getting on the internet and asking for advice on the time you sniffed your sister's panties?

I just recently mentioned taping my dick to my bed at the age of twelve for lack of creativity as to what to do with the dang thing.

Maybe I'm not your target audience here.

Honestly, I don't know who your target audience is when you bring this sort of thing up. I did mention everyone here already has parents?

Also, this:

This isn't just The Internet. What we have here is special. It's more a community. A wonderful, diverse community that is relatively polite and well behaved. It's no wonder people will choose to come here for advice. There's a huge population of experience to draw from and the topics are usually things people don't feel comfortable discussing with their friends or family.

So don't worry about it?

[peterbound]

This isn't just The Internet. What we have here is special. It's more a community. A wonderful, diverse community that is relatively polite and well behaved. It's no wonder people will choose to come here for advice. There's a huge population of experience to draw from and the topics are usually things people don't feel comfortable discussing with their friends or family.

This is a great forum, and the only one i actually post to. But it's still the Internet. The people here are great, and i've met a few of the IRL during our colorado get togethers. I would still, never, ever bring something like this up. I have friends that i would call, family i would talk too, or professionals i would seek out.

Now don't get me wrong, and we've had this discussion before, i'd ask some small legal advice on here (lots of lawyers), maybe some accounting shit (lot's of accountants), and some advice on how to survive a Zombie Apocalypse. But about my son sniffing underwear... probably not.

And how the fuck would you feel more comfortable discussing this kind of shit with people on the internet and not your friends or family. Hell.. that's what freaking friends are for.

We're getting off topic. And i'm sure at some point the PM's will tell me to STFU, so i'll do so now.

[Darkostar]

This is a great forum, and the only one i actually post to. But it's still the Internet. The people here are great,

The people here are the same people they would be if we all had a pow-wow IRL (likely, anyways, unless we have traps.)

They're still good fonts of advice, even though they're miles away staring at a computer screen.

"But it's still the internet" is not a valid excuse in any way. People are people.

[Cantabile]

Interaction is one thing. Airing this kind of laundry is another. Could you imagine how mortified you would be if you found out your GRANDPA of all people was getting on the internet and asking for advice on the time you sniffed your sister's panties? This is the type of conversation that needs to happen face to face, with trusted friends and professionals. Not a bunch of witty yahoos who like SF/F.

There's a lot of cesspools on the Internet, and I would never seek advice in 99.9% of the places I've seen on the web, but this forum is different. People here are overwhelming mature, civil, intelligent, and helpful, and that's why I joined this community in the first place, and I feel more than comfortable sharing these personal details.

Just me though. I'll go back and read the 100's of responses on here to see about this 'family dynamic' but I can't see this as anything other than the dad needing to step up, have the 'talk', and tell the kid not to do that shit again.

I wish it were that simple. I can't merely wave a wand and make my son change his entire personality so that he stops being his wife's slave and confronts issues like this, nor can I make it so my grandson will obey any advice. How a person acts and responds is shaped by the sum of his life experiences and development. And especially being only the grandfather there's not much I can force into action. My daughter helping out and talking to the kiddo will have great effects, I believe.

[Liadin]

This is a great forum, and the only one i actually post to. But it's still the Internet. The people here are great, and i've met a few of the IRL during our colorado get togethers. I would still, never, ever bring something like this up. I have friends that i would call, family i would talk too, or professionals i would seek out.

I feel like you're thinking of sharing problems with random Internet people as somehow equivalent to sharing problems with casual acquaintances, or the mailman or something. But it's not like that. None of us know the identity of Cantabile, his son, his grandson or anyone else involved (well, maybe some of you have met him in real life; the vast majority of us haven't I'd presume). So I'm not sure where the privacy violation is. We wouldn't recognize these people if we ran into them on the street--which is incredibly unlikely anyway. In fact, if Cantabile's bringing it up on the forum rather than discussing it with people who also know his family, it seems to me his family's privacy is more protected that way.

And as others have said, sometimes it's really helpful to get advice from disinterested parties.

[Balefont]

This is a great forum, and the only one i actually post to. But it's still the Internet. The people here are great, and i've met a few of the IRL during our colorado get togethers. I would still, never, ever bring something like this up. I have friends that i would call, family i would talk too, or professionals i would seek out.

Well good for you. You're lucky you have those types of relationships and don't have any problems that would make you uncomfortable discussing them with those you know.

Like zollo, I, too, am a pretty private person. I tend to shy away from asking anyone for advice, here or otherwise. At the same time, I'm not going to talk shit about those who do look to others, here or from friends or family. It's discourteous and judgmental, to say the least.

[Blaine]

Mother of all things holy, this thread is more magical than a pack of unicorns running through a glitter-encrusted giant candy cane field.

That said, I'm glad to hear the "cool" daughter is going to intervene. The whole time I read this thread I kept thinking - this is what older brothers are for. To talk about this stuff so that you don't have to turn to:

Crazy mothers

Submissive fathers

Creepy webcam strangers who talk to 12 year olds about boners during Starcraft games

A professional therapist

Grandpa

It's like that scene in Parenthood where Keanu Reeves has to explain to Joaquin Phoenix that whacking it just what little dudes do. Except that in this case, he's be saying that the panty/incest/hentai/golden retriever thing is pretty far out there and it's time to reel it back in to good old normal people porn.

[Eponine]

I think that it's the relative anonymity that makes it easier to ask for advice. You have the chance to lay out all the details in writing, and the respondents aren't emotionally invested. If you think someone's advice is stupid and ignore it, it's not going to affect your relationship. The people who you asked don't know the people who you're asking about, so there's no chance that they're going to gossip about you to anyone who matters, or accidentally let slip to the person you have a problem with that you talked to them. Ultimately, it reduces the potential for drama.

In addition, if my friend calls me and says "I have a personal problem with this woman you've never met and let me tell you all about it so you can tell me what to do", that's going to get real old real fast. Whereas, on the board, if you don't want to read advice threads, you can ignore them and you don't have to tell someone personally - hey I don't care about your problem.

If you're on the board long enough, advice threads are what there is left that's new. R+L=J? Feminist Israelis? Oh I'm so glad that someone is having a relationship problem.

[Jaak]

It is shocking, and perhaps even horrifying, how well they can keep up their cover. There was a case at an elementary school in the Bay Area I was reading about, where a teacher who was everyone's favorite teacher, an outstanding guy, beloved by all his faculty, and parents, was finally caught having an affair with a kid he was tutoring. I don't understand how people can keep guises like that up for so many years, fooling even their own spouses and children. Sickening.

I'm not sure if a talk will solve that though, because he was already given a talk when his parents bought him the webcam originally.

Why assume that it is "guise", or that paedophiles are somehow on average more skilled at manipulating people than others?

Consider an ordinary elderly gentleman with a long marriage, children and grandchildren, going through rough patches in their marriage occasionally.

A gentleman puts women and children first in trouble, is nice to others, opens doors for ladies et cetera. This does not mean they are getting rewarded from everyone, in terms of intercourse - a gentleman is not fucking every woman he opens doors for. A husband might very well sometimes daydream (or wet dream) about women other than his wife, look at them when he meets them, watch pornography, exchange friendly banter - and never go beyond this.

Many husbands do go beyond. Some have numerous affairs, some visit prostitutes, some carry out long term affairs and set out second families that the first family is ignorant of. Certainly, many get caught - but quite many can successfully conceal occasional infidelities.

In any case, unfaithful husbands can look like gentlemen. They can smile to other women, hold doors open to them, chat - and go no further with most women they encounter. They only go after a few women who they discover to be vulnerable - or interested.

There are also quite some bisexuals who can be married and raise children - but also have homosexual encounters which their wives and children do not know.

And yes, there are people who are interested in children in addition to being married and having children of their own.

If a husband is generally nice to ladies and meets a thousand women, he may make serious sexual passes on exactly zero of them, or in out of the thousand, or ten. His wife would not witness these, and neither would the 990 he does not make a pass on. Ditto about a teacher who is a paedophile. Being generally nice, flirting, daydreaming and wetdreaming may lead to zero hands on offences, exactly one or a big string of them.

Now, what are the most common ways for a child to wind up in direct danger?

I remember an actual example read about quite recently. A bunch of teenage boys were contacted online by somebody who claimed to be a girl in her late teens (slightly older than the boys contacted - I think the claimed age was 16 or 17, and the boys contacted were around 14).

The person asked the boys to pose sexually on webcams - and when the boys had complied, threatened to send the revealing pictures to the families of the boys. And demanded more revealing pictures.

One of the boys killed himself under pressure.

When the scandal broke, police announced that they were searching (based on the content of the conservation) an intelligent man, perhaps a former teacher, aged past 35.

When the person actually was discovered, it turned out that the person was male as police guessed - but 22 and unemployed. So much about their guessing skills.

Note that in this case, what proved dangerous on a webcam was NOT an acknowledged middle-aged man. It was a supposed teenage girl. Who, precisely because of being somebody teenage boys should love sexually, could get compromising images and use them for blackmail.

Can you tell any stories where self-confessed middle-aged man turned out to be dangerous on the Internet?

I hope that your grandson is not told that paedophiles can cause keyboards to emit noxious fumes. Yes, there are people who are better manipulators and liars than others. But no man can actually control the thoughts of others. The person being manipulated may not spot where the lies are, but it should be possible to figure out what a stranger can and cannot be trusted with - even assuming that the stranger is maliciously lying.

[Jaerv]

Do you know the term logorrhoea?

[TerraPrime]

Re: Jaak's post

Well, that just doubled down on the wrongness in this thread here.

In case people forgot, when they say "The person being manipulated may not spot where the lies are, but it should be possible to figure out what a stranger can and cannot be trusted with - even assuming that the stranger is maliciously lying," this "person" in this case is a 12 year-old boy starting his puberty and who lives in a household with questionable mental health status.

[Cantabile]

The talk between my daughter and grandson went great! He opened up a lot to her, and she was able to address some of his problematic issues without revealing that his parents are spying. For the pictures he's been taking on his phone, she said that she heard about it from his dad, because pictures show up for the owner of the phone account, and get displayed on the bill. Which is complete bs, of course, but he bought it. When he started freaking out, she assured him that his dad wasn't worried, because he knew his son would never even think of violating so many people's privacy like that, and that it must have been that he let a friend use the phone, and the friend took the pictures. Which led them to a conversation about privacy, and how there's good and bad ways to indulge one's desires, and she said that he seemed to really understand. So hopefully that's the end to the panties stealing and taking pictures of his classmates :) She was able to address the issue about the middle-aged man too.

I feel very relieved and hopeful that things will be much better now. Next time the parents check the keylogger there should be a decrease in these things.

[The Evil Hat]

I'm really glad to here it, Cantabile. Does it look like things like the middle aged man are done, now? Hope things get better, there.

[Cantabile]

Can't say for sure. My daughter sounded very optimistic, so I'm hoping that everything goes well from here. There's still the family issues, of course, but one thing at a time. Can't say for certain that he took their conversation to heart until the parents check the keylogger and phone again. If he seems to have stopped, ideally they'll stop spying on him.

[Jaak]

In case people forgot, when they say "The person being manipulated may not spot where the lies are, but it should be possible to figure out what a stranger can and cannot be trusted with - even assuming that the stranger is maliciously lying," this "person" in this case is a 12 year-old boy starting his puberty and who lives in a household with questionable mental health status.

True. People who are maliciously lying and manipulating depend on finding and exploiting weaknesses in their victims - they depend on their victims believing some material lie and acting on it.

And a 12 year old boy starting his puberty and living in a household with questionable mental health status is vulnerable, yes. But this is not explanation he would believe or like, no? He would be more convinced if you could demonstrate to him how he has actually been cheated or probably has been.

Now, two notorious examples of teen girls who hanged themselves because of bullying. Megan Meier and Hope Witsell.

Megan Meier, 13, was contacted by what claimed to be a 16 year old boy Josh Evans. At first they were friends and in love; then Josh turned around, claimed that she was not nice to her friends and that she was hated by everybody. She hanged herself basically on Josh´s word.

Except "Josh" was neither male nor teenage but a middle-aged woman, mother of Megan´s classmate, who had created the identity of Josh and the love affair solely out of malice against Megan. Would Megan have cared about a middle-aged woman telling that the world would be better without her?

Now, Hope Witsell.

She sent a topless photo of herself, at 13, to a boy she liked, to gain his love.

The boy was not interested; but a friend of the boy intercepted the picture and disseminated it. The result was that the girls of her school started to call her a slut, in her face as well as behind her back. She endured a long campaign of harrassment, but was protected by her school friends. But when the school authorities, having got wind of the scandal, dismissed her from her post of student adviser, she hanged herself.

In this case, the bullying came from real teenage girls who met her in flesh. No adults were involved - except in their capacity as school authorities.

And Hope was vulnerable because of revealing photo sent to a real teenage boy.

My point is, a 12-13 year old in a home of questionable sanity and beginning puberty is vulnerable to manipulation by any persons sufficiently malicious and skilled, whether they are middle-aged men professing to be the same, or middle-aged men professing to be teenage girls, or actual teenagers. Plenty of malicious and manipulative teenagers can be found at any school, and there is nothing a self-professed middle-aged man could do over Internet that a real teenager could not do as well - but there are very many things that a teenager can get away with and a middle-aged man could not.

I´d say that voyeuristic pictures of his classmates are much more dangerous than the self-professed middle-aged man. Unless he has sent these voyeuristic pictures to the middle-aged man....

[Jaerv]

Can't say for sure. My daughter sounded very optimistic, so I'm hoping that everything goes well from here. There's still the family issues, of course, but one thing at a time. Can't say for certain that he took their conversation to heart until the parents check the keylogger and phone again. If he seems to have stopped, ideally they'll stop spying on him.

Sorry for sounding a bit pessimistic, but I think hat this talk may possibly be very helpful with the panties thing and the taking-pictures-of-classmate's-thing. But will the porn consumption also be affected? I have my dpoubts there, since that is not a violation of privacy of any real person and the aunt seemed to focus on the privacy thing. This leads to the question: Can the parents tolerate his a bit weird porn consumption, on the long run?