Sniffing Sister's and Mother's Panties

[Maltaran]

EDIT: In many muslim countries the Bintʿamm, the daughter of a man's father's brother, i.e. his patrilateral cousin, is seen as the ideal bride.

Some countries consider first cousins to be incestuous, others think the relationship is far enough apart to not count as incest. I did see an article recently about there being a larger than expected number of birth defects among certain British Asian communities, and this being linked to their preference for marrying their cousins.

[Cantabile]

Just got off the phone with my son. Here's basically what happened last night:

After flying into a rage about her son not only sniffing her panties, but stealing them and masturbating onto them, she came to the conclusion that it isn't a simple panty fetish and pubescent confusion, but that he has incestuous feelings for her. She told her husband that one night a week or two ago, when he was gone on a business trip, she woke to the sound of her son screaming/moaning in his sleep from a nightmare. He couldn't fall back asleep, so she let him sleep on her husband's side of their bed, so that he'd feel secure enough to fall back asleep.

She says that she woke up again a little while later, and that it sounded like her son was masturbating on his side. She thought it was just her imagination, and fell back asleep. In the morning, when she woke up before her son, she found that he was sleeping naked in her bed.

She also claims that a while ago when she was getting in her bathroom, her son walked in on her, and instead of hurriedly rushing out of the bathroom, he stared at her naked for a long moment before leaving.

To her, these two anecdotes are "proof" that this isn't simply an innocent panties kink.

Honestly, I don't know what to think about that. The mom is pretty crazy, and is one of those people that has to be always right, bending realities to fit whatever she believes. Family accidentally walk in on each other naked all the time; it doesn't mean they're trying to get off on seeing each other, for Christ's sake. Him staring for a moment was likely just a shocked reaction, like deer-in-the-headlights rather than him thinking, "SWEET, MOM BOOBS!"

As to the bed incident, well, I wouldn't feel comfortable sleeping naked near any family member, but mileage varies on what people are comfortable with. I have slept naked all my life, but if I'm sharing a bed with someone other than my spouse, I sure as hell keep clothes on. I also want to clarify that the parents' bed is king sized, and that they were on far opposite sides, with a huge space between each other.

As for masturbating in the bed...I don't know. She had just woken up, and it could have easily been something else, and she's just warping the memory in hindsight. Even IF he did masturbate in the bed, that doesn't mean it was to her. When I was about 13 I remember going on a trip with my dad, and I was a horny little bugger at that age, and used to masturbating multiple times per day. Well, since I was with him all day I didn't get a chance. There was only one bed in the hotel room, so we shared the bed, and I wasn't able to go asleep since I was so wound up sexually. My dad was an incredibly deep sleeper, borderline hibernation, and snored obscenely loudly so you always knew he was asleep. Well, I ended up masturbating while in the bed, so I'd be able to go to sleep, and I didn't think it was too awkward since there was a foot of space between us and I was on my side facing away from him.

My son managed to convince her not to talk to him, thank God. However, since she's so paranoid now, she's looking for any evidence she can to take him to a shrink asap. While he was asleep this morning she stole his phone, and went through all the pictures on it.

She found tons of voyeuristic pictures he had taken at school: girls at lunch tables bent over in their seats so their thongs are showing, and dozens of things like that.

She also went onto his personal laptop, and found pictures of underage girls.

I don't really know how I feel about those two things. It's perfectly natural for him to be oogling every girl his age, but taking pictures is a pretty big violation of privacy, even if he doesn't intend to ever put them up on the web and just keeps them on his phone. Voyeurism is very common, though, so it's not like that makes him a freak.

As for the underage thing...that has to stop, clear and simple. I understand he wants to see naked girls his age, but the simple fact is that it's illegal, and that it's the family internet. I'm sure the chances of people getting caught for downloading that shit is pretty low, but still, he shouldn't be doing things that are outright illegal to get off.

And yes, him visiting porn sites and not being 18 is technically illegal, but there's a pretty big difference between going to a porn website versus downloading pictures of underage girls.

I'm also kinda' pissed off that the mother is going through his computer/phone. That, to me, is a much larger violation of privacy than stealing panties. If he finds out he will be rightfully furious, and likely never trust her again.

Even worse, she installed a keylogger on his laptop, to monitor every website he goes to and thing he types. That, to me, is worse than anything the kid has done, to be honest. I'm not sure if I should honestly just call my grandson up and tell her that she's done that.

[The Evil Hat]

Wow. This got really bad. It seems that the mother is doing everything she can to get things to be her way (though you'd think it'd be better to try and avoid thinking about incest). I don't think that the masturbation is indicative of anything; I think it was likely just a nightly habit that just ended up in the wrong place. I agree with you about the invasions of privacy. Is she at least waiting to take him to a shrink/confront him for now? I think that being dragged to a shrink to discuss incest is just about as traumatizing as you can get.

Regarding the key logger, that's a tricky one. If you tell him, it will set off the lack of trust thing anyway, and there's also the fact that the wife will then likely be furious at you. But I see your side as well; it's incredibly intrusive.

Shouldn't the pictures of other girls on the phone at least partially dampen the incest accusations? And while I don't think that's exactly a nice thing to be doing, I don't think that it's the end of the world, either. He's not stalking anyone or anything like that. He can't be seriously blamed for looking if it's, ahem, "on display" and while taking a picture does elevate things, it's not like he's following them into the bathroom.

Hope this works out well for your grandson, Cantabile.

[Jaerv]

She found tons of voyeuristic pictures he had taken at school: girls at lunch tables bent over in their seats so their thongs are showing, and dozens of things like that.

She also went onto his personal laptop, and found pictures of underage girls.

That is clear evidence against Cruella's "incestuos fixation" hypothesis. Can't she see this?

The son is a hormonally disbalanced 12-year old who lacks sensitivity for others people's feelings. Which is quite normal at this age, if you ask me.

But maybe the shrink is a very good one and manages to involve the whole family into the therapy. Could be helpful for the adults, too.

[kuroishi]

Wow.

That's a hell of a situation there.

It looks like the main difficulty will be to calm down your son's wife.

Concerning your grandson, even if it looks like a lot,I agree that there's nothing conclusive there. He's a very horny kid, but that happens.

As for the pictures, I'm pretty sure that if cellphones with cameras had been available when I was in middle school, every single boy in my classes would have been trying to catch some kind of voyeuristic pictures as well.

As for masturbation, well, that can happen everywhere. I'm sure every guy around here has some kind of dirty story (involving himself and/or his friends) from age 12-14 of masturbation in weird or uncommon places. I won't share my own story of the first time I had any access to internet (back in 1998), but that's not something I'm proud of. <_<

And of course, fantasizing on girls his age is perfectly normal

I agree with you regarding the legal implication of the pictures and websites though, it might seem normal to him, but it's really not and that's something he has to learn.

[kairparavel]

If mom's gathering evidence, this thread should probably go away. A Google search could lead her right here (and no doubt scary places that will cause her to need a shrink.)

A general question about children and therapy: Is that really the first order solution for dealing with something like this? Ship 'em off to a shrink? Short of causing physical harm to someone/themselves wouldn't a talk with the child (a parent) be first order? See if you can get to the root of what's going on? And if it progresses or stops then comes back, escalate to where a shrink might come into play?

There are no doubt a lot of things that people/parents aren't comfortable dealing with, but isn't that part of what you signed up for when you decided to take on the role of parent? To you know, parent, for better or worse?

[zollo]

If mom's gathering evidence, this thread should probably go away. A Google search could lead her right here (and no doubt scary places that will cause her to need a shrink.)

A general question about children and therapy: Is that really the first order solution for dealing with something like this? Ship 'em off to a shrink? Short of causing physical harm to someone/themselves wouldn't a talk with the child (a parent) be first order? See if you can get to the root of what's going on? And if it progresses or stops then comes back, escalate to where a shrink might come into play?

There are no doubt a lot of things that people/parents aren't comfortable dealing with, but isn't that part of what you signed up for when you decided to take on the role of parent? To you know, parent, for better or worse?

This. 100%. Same attitude as folks who, at the slightest drop of a hat, propose pills to be the solution, regardless of the issue at hand.

Almost read this thread in one go - what a trainwreck scenario. Really hoping it is all sorted out in a fashion that leaves none involved damaged.

[Jaerv]

If mom's gathering evidence, this thread should probably go away. A Google search could lead her right here (and no doubt scary places that will cause her to need a shrink.)

Eh? How should that happen? If she searches for "Son, mother, bathroom" or something like that, she will never end here. The only rare and personal word that would lead her to us would be the nickname her husband uses for her when she is raging. But she would probably never type that into Google, even if she knows the nickname, which is unlikely...

[Cantabile]

If mom's gathering evidence, this thread should probably go away. A Google search could lead her right here (and no doubt scary places that will cause her to need a shrink.)

A general question about children and therapy: Is that really the first order solution for dealing with something like this? Ship 'em off to a shrink? Short of causing physical harm to someone/themselves wouldn't a talk with the child (a parent) be first order? See if you can get to the root of what's going on? And if it progresses or stops then comes back, escalate to where a shrink might come into play?

There are no doubt a lot of things that people/parents aren't comfortable dealing with, but isn't that part of what you signed up for when you decided to take on the role of parent? To you know, parent, for better or worse?

I'm not worried about her finding this thread at all; she's just looking at the kid's internet history, I doubt she's going to go on a mass Google spree about similar situations and chance upon this thread. Even if she did, by some rare chance, perhaps reading all the great replies in her would calm her down about the subject and make her rethink it.

It's a parent's responsability to try to fix problems with their kids, and I agree that's what they signed up for when they decided to have a child. If it's something like, "My kid is collecting severed pet heads!" professional help might be the best idea, but for things like this I think therapists should be the last resort. Unless the parents are really inept and it's better off they didn't try to handle any situation, of course.

The keylogger issue strikes a chord with me, because it's something my wife did to me a few years back. She was going through a very insecure phase, which led her to believe that I must be cheating on her. Of course it was completely unfounded, but she had a tech-savvy friend install a keylogger on my desktop, and had been spying on me for several months until I found out. I was not happy, to say the least, and it almost caused us to get a divorce.

My grandson is very mischievous, though, and if I tell him that everything he's doing on the computer is being recorded, he'll likely start doing obscene things to get revenge, like start having schizophrenic sexual conversations with himself online, roleplaying barnyard animals and lampshades. Or make it look like he's planning on getting a sex change. It'd be poetic justice to mess with his mom like that, but I'm pretty sure it'd make the situation far worse.

[zollo]

Eh? How should that happen? If she searches for "Son, mother, bathroom" or something like that, she will never end here. The only rare and personal word that would lead her to us would be the nickname her husband uses for her when she is raging. But she would probably never type that into Google, even if she knows the nickname, which is unlikely...

Just gave it a shot and "sniffing panties mother" gives you this board as search result 3.

[Spastic Plastic]

Your grandson seems to have a fetish for voyeurism in general, seems like. He probably knows it's not accepted, and maybe it's the thrill of doing something unacceptable that turns him on. So him taking pictures of schoolgirls his own age and jerking off on his mom's panties are probably aspects of the same sexual kink.

Nothing wrong with that, but the way he's indulging his fetish should be stopped. Like Rhllor Coaster said, the best thing is to have The Talk with him now, instead of wringing your hands and talking to everyone except the kid.

I don't believe the kid should go to a therapist, Chataya. This will just make him feel like a sexually deviant freak. If anyone needs to see a therapist ASAP, it's the mom.

[Cantabile]

Just gave it a shot and "sniffing panties mother" gives you this board as search result 3.

If we have a sudden influx of members with a fetish for sniffing their mother's panties, Ran will know who to blame :P

[Eponine]

Shouldn't the pictures of other girls on the phone at least partially dampen the incest accusations? And while I don't think that's exactly a nice thing to be doing, I don't think that it's the end of the world, either. He's not stalking anyone or anything like that. He can't be seriously blamed for looking if it's, ahem, "on display" and while taking a picture does elevate things, it's not like he's following them into the bathroom.

While I agree it should dampen the incest accusations, I don't think it's a not a big deal. Even another minor can get in big trouble for having sexually themed pictures of underage girls - such as secretly taking pictures of a 12 year old's underwear, and while it's unlikely that he'd get in that trouble, it's still something that should be stopped. It's not stifling a kid's sexuality to prohibit him from secretly taking pictures of classmates - not the same as telling him that he can't look. But IMO the pictures are a boundary that shouldn't be crossed for multiple reasons.

[Jaerv]

I don't believe the kid should go to a therapist, Chataya. This will just make him feel like a sexually deviant freak. If anyone needs to see a therapist ASAP, it's the mom.

I also don't thnik that the boy really needs a therapist. But the whole family system could obviously benefit from a therapy. Maybe the "mom's panties"-incident is a good reason to start a family therapy...

[Spastic Plastic]

A therapist can also tell you that you're perfectly normal, and show you ways to deal with your domineering mother.

Maybe you're right, Chataya. I don't know. I've had bad experiences with therapists and psychologists myself (I was wrongly diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome when I was ten).

But dontcha think the dad should at least try talking to his son first?

[Cantabile]

I also don't thnik that the boy really needs a therapist. But the whole family system could obviously benefit from a therapy. Maybe the "mom's panties"-incident is a good reason to start a family therapy...

Would be nice. Wonder how the mom would take it if I gave her a gift certificate to therapy for Christmas :D

Realistically, though, there's a greater chance of China kissing the Dalai Lama's ass than there is of that woman agreeing to go to any form of counseling. She suffers from a God-complex, and if anyone so much as hints that she's wrong about something she flies into a rage. To give an example: At Thanksgiving dinner she used a word incorrectly, so my son didn't really understand her question and asked for clarification, and she proceeded to scream and rage at him for about twenty minutes of profanity about how much of a failure and idiot he is for not understanding her, hitting him whenever he tried to defend himself or say anything. Everyone close to her is so afraid of her temper tantrums that they just nod and agree with anything she says since it's much safer to just suffer your pride than risk having to deal with Satan. And since nobody disagrees with her, it just reinforces her "I'm always right and can never be wrong" mentality.

I've long since given up hope on her.

[Jaerv]

The grandson is also posting his story on the Internet already ;)

[zollo]

I've long since given up hope on her.

Fair enough. What are the chances of getting your son to enter a battered spouse support group or some such? Clearly Satan is not going anywhere in terms of personal (re)development - how about him?

[Shryke]

For the "checking his computer" thing, I don't see any invasion of privacy. He's fucking 12. His parents damn well SHOULD be checking up on what he's doing.

While I agree it should dampen the incest accusations, I don't think it's a not a big deal. Even another minor can get in big trouble for having sexually themed pictures of underage girls - such as secretly taking pictures of a 12 year old's underwear, and while it's unlikely that he'd get in that trouble, it's still something that should be stopped. It's not stifling a kid's sexuality to prohibit him from secretly taking pictures of classmates - not the same as telling him that he can't look. But IMO the pictures are a boundary that shouldn't be crossed for multiple reasons.

Seriously. Once you get into taking pictures of girls at school and shit, you are getting into creepy fucking territory. That's the kind of shit people get arrested for.

I think the answer to this should be obvious to anyone -- prayer.

I'm on it. I'm sure the Catholic Church has a specific procedure in place for "Son sniffing his mom's panties".

[Cantabile]

Fair enough. What are the chances of getting your son to enter a battered spouse support group or some such? Clearly Satan is not going anywhere in terms of personal (re)development - how about him?

He wasn't able to leave her before they got married, and now that he's dealt with her for all these years he's trapped in the cycle. Being constantly physically/emotionally abused is just the norm for him now, and I don't think he'd be able to leave, especially due to the kids. I've tried my best to help him before, but lending him my ear is all I can really do.

He's been forbidden by the wife to talk to the son for now. She wants to "observe the situation" before making any moves. When he explained to her that a simple talk could solve all the issues, she said that if you get people to stop something only because they're afraid or embarassed because you know, then it's not that they really truly stopped, because it's not on their own incentive, and that they're just hiding the behaviors to themselves, which makes it worse. My son said she compared the kid to a serial killer for one of her analogies. Such a bitch.