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Ser_not_appearing_yet

All-purpose TV nitpick extravaganza thread.

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Harington certainly looks younger when he doesn't have the stubble. There's a shot in the Winterfell line up scene where you can see this. It seems like they got rid of the stubble for when Robert arrives, but then the boys start growing it again as soon as they can. I keep thinking this may be to retain some scenes from the pilot, though, because by the time they're departing Winterfell, it's back to the stubble.

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Well, you have to remember that with less vitamins, etc. both voice-breaking and beard-growth were seriously delayed and of course some people (mostly blonds, but also some others) are genetically slow in this respect. O'Henry wrote about a 20-year man "whose face has never known a humiliation of a razor" and who nevertheless didn't have any facial hair to speak of as something relatively typical and admirably masculine, for instance ;).

I'd have liked it if both Robb and Jon had been clean-shaven in the beginning and grew their face-hair more gradually, "aging", as it were. But maybe it underscored Madden looking much older than Harrington? I dunno. It seemed to me that Madden looked younger in the one picture where he was clean-shaven, but there was no Harrington there to compare.

Its not about masculinity or the ability to grow facial hair, its about practicality. Hell, I wont shave every day purely because its a chore. Imagine how people with rusty knives would view it.

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Well, you have to remember that with less vitamins, etc. both voice-breaking and beard-growth were seriously delayed and of course some people (mostly blonds, but also some others) are genetically slow in this respect. O'Henry wrote about a 20-year man "whose face has never known a humiliation of a razor" and who nevertheless didn't have any facial hair to speak of as something relatively typical and admirably masculine, for instance ;).

Unless you have some statistics that I haven't seen, I think "seriously delayed" is an exaggeration. There's evidence that the average age of onset of puberty has dropped in the last few hundred years, but the change is much greater in girls than in boys, and we're talking about a change from 12 to 10-- not from 18 to 12. (The idea that people in the past were generally stunted in growth due to diet is also an exaggeration based on relatively recent history: there was a temporary drop in average height during the Industrial Revolution.) I'm pretty sure both Robb and Jon are over 16 in the show, and given the general beardiness of Northeners in the books it's unlikely that they'd be smooth at that age.

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Don't care about the age. But I am in complete agreement with Lady Blackfish. Cat is such a strong character. She believes in honour and duty and she's so determined and fearless in so many ways. Yes, she's a good wife and a loving mum. But she's so... inherently regal. It's intrinsic, not put on. And it's that's breeding that defines her, in so many ways. Her insistence on staying at her father's bedside really brought that home to me. She had a right to be there, even after she let Jaime go. And hell, she was so sure in that, no one questioned her.

That's the Cat in my head.

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This is the opposite of a nitpick, but if I read one more comment about how the guy playing Jon looks prettier without facial hair, I will punch something.

Now... you made me think about this. He actually is :D

Don't punch anything, please. Just kidding

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But she's so... inherently regal. It's intrinsic, not put on. And it's that's breeding that defines her, in so many ways.

Yes, this. I want Catelyn to own her strength and stature. She has what Brienne calls a woman's courage (which I really hope isn't played in a trivializing way), and she didn't learn that from any man.

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I mean, because a celibate order of men living in their own filth in an arctic zone are going to bothering with shit like that.

Was celibacy part of the package? I know no wives, no children, but I recall there was a part talking about a bunch of the Watch visiting the nearby (underground) brothel. I doubt the Old Bear endorsed these visits, but it didn't sound like this was breaking of the vows.

I suppose that too could result in children, but I suspect most whores would be old hand at brewing "whore's tea" (bitter melon, wild carrot, blue cohosh, pennyroyal, nutmeg, mugwort, vervain, ergot, saffron or tansy, what have you).

Otherwise, all men, close quarters, cannot leave... sounds like there could be some (non-)consensual coitus betwixt the Brothers. :stunned:

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The vows are meant to involve celibacy. Same for the vows of the Kingsguard. The fact that many of the men go to Moletown to look for "buried treasure", and that the Watch basically has to look the other way, is given as a sign of how far the Watch has fallen.

From ASoS:

Jon very much feels -- and is correct to feel -- that he broke his vows with Ygritte.

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The vows are meant to involve celibacy. Same for the vows of the Kingsguard. The fact that many of the men go to Moletown to look for "buried treasure", and that the Watch basically has to look the other way, is given as a sign of how far the Watch has fallen.

From ASoS:

Jon very much feels -- and is correct to feel -- that he broke his vows with Ygritte.

Ahh, I see what you are saying, when I read the Jon/Ygritte inner struggle, I was leaning more toward how Ygritte had "claimed" Jon and by the standards of wildling culture, he was compelled to claim her, a much closer relationship than customer to prostitute, much more akin to common law marriage, which was clearly an aspect of the vows.

I don't doubt someone will quote the actual NW vow text here next post or two and remove most of the wiggle room I was reading into it.

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There is "wriggle" room, as you call it, just as there is in the same vows of the Kingsguard -- but the spirit of the vow is that they are celibate. Jon in AGoT:

He wondered whether any of his brothers in black were down there [Mole's Town] tonight, mining. That was oathbreaking too, yet no one seemed to care.

In regard to the similar vow of the Kingsguard, where they also swear to have no wife or children, see here:

3) Kingsguards may not have a wife or children, but does this also include a vow of chastity?

In theory, yes, but at least one Kingsguard was executed for sleeping with a king's mistress, and many others have doubtless had "lapses."

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The vows are meant to involve celibacy. Same for the vows of the Kingsguard. The fact that many of the men go to Moletown to look for "buried treasure", and that the Watch basically has to look the other way, is given as a sign of how far the Watch has fallen.

From ASoS:

Jon very much feels -- and is correct to feel -- that he broke his vows with Ygritte.

No, i think Jon overeacts there. First time I read, i remember i couldn't understand why Jon was taking it so seriously, since the NW oath doesn't expecially forbid sex.

"Hear my words, and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end ntil my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

There is nothing about sex here, a NW can do it. Ok, maybe it's not encouraged, but it's not forbidden either. I don't remember anybody sayng something like "having sex in the watch is a bad thing" but i rememeber both tyrion and theon thinking careless about the possibilily of being in the watch and having intercourses with a woman. I always though Jon's reaction was a very neddish one :)

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I always though Jon's reaction was a very neddish one :)

Neddish = honourable. Any of the most honourable people in Westeros would agree with Jon.

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Neddish = honourable. Any of the most honourable people in Westeros would agree with Jon.

Oh, I thought she meant nebbish.

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There is nothing about sex here, a NW can do it. Ok, maybe it's not encouraged, but it's not forbidden either.

If you're going to be pedantic about the exact wording then you could argue that it's not forbidden explicitly by the oath, but I think it is clearly against the spirit of the oath.

I don't remember anybody sayng something like "having sex in the watch is a bad thing" but i rememeber both tyrion and theon thinking careless about the possibilily of being in the watch and having intercourses with a woman.

On the contrary, Tyrion certainly seems to think the NW members have to be celibate and not visit whores:

Jaime smiled. "I hope you're not thinking of taking the black on us, sweet brother."

Tyrion laughed. "What, me, celibate? The whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock. No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world."

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Heh, I wonder if Tyrion would have been more willing to take the Black when he was imprisoned for Joffrey's murder if he had known that people look the other way when it comes to members of the Nightwatch using whores? ;)

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I don't know how much clearer you can be than George, in referencing the Kingsguard vow (whose wording regarding wives and children is basically exactly the same), indicating that those words mean celibacy. It is not an over-reaction. The letter of the vow seems loose to us, but in Westeros, the intent of the vow is understood: celibacy.

Theon, of course, is not exactly the measure for honor by any standard. Whereas, as william notes, Tyrion himself takes the Night's Watch vows to intend celibacy... because they do. Not that he would necessarily actually remain celibate if he was forced to swear such vows... but he would then acknowledge he was actually breaking his vows.

In any case: the Night's Watch are supposed to be celibate. Many are not. The Night's Watch has fallen far.

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Heh, I wonder if Tyrion would have been more willing to take the Black when he was imprisoned for Joffrey's murder if he had known that people look the other way when it comes to members of the Nightwatch using whores. ;)

Heh. I don't think celibacy was the issue but it is an interesting question still. :) Tyrion is honourable in his own way. If he said those words...

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If GRRM says the vows of the Watch are meant to require celibacy, that is really the end of the argument as to the wording.

Ran is right - the Watch has fallen REALLY far if Mole's Town can support a brothel. You would not expect to find a brothel in a place that wasn't on a main trade route or in a big city. Especially one that has more than a handful of girls.

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Neddish = honourable. Any of the most honourable people in Westeros would agree with Jon.

Neddish = honor to the extreme power. Meaningless honor.

This is my definition of neddish.

Also, Maester Aemon once said Jon their vows are meant to not make the NW love. That means no wives and not children. This is why i think that in the NW occasianal sex is tolerated.. until there is not an actual sentimental bound there is not problem.

Also, you said the NW is falling.. well, one of the reason the NW is falling is because there are less than 1000 men (i guess less than 800 now) when they used to be almost 10000 three hundred years before. Well, during the golden age of the NW, there were more than 10000 men. Not 10000 captives, rapers and scum, but 10000 good men - and a kingt out of ten. Well, can you say 10000 men giving up the possibility of having sex forver? I can't. If they could get laid at least once in a while, the situation becomes understandable. (and tolerable!)

(and i could bet mole's town has been there for a while)

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