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Ser_not_appearing_yet

All-purpose TV nitpick extravaganza thread.

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Neddish = honor to the extreme power. Meaningless honor.

Nah. Ned's honour clearly had meaning. :) And GRRM contrasted Ned with Stannis when it came to extreme honour. That wasn't Ned's failing.

This is why i think that in the NW occasianal sex is tolerated.

Exactly. Tolerated. Nobody is pretending its not wrong.

There are a few reasons why the NW is failing. The lack of a real obvious threat is one. The KG is another (as in, here is another elite celibate order dedicated to the realm). The unification of Westeros is another.

I do imagine Mole Town has always existed. But the % of participation probably has changed.

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Nah. Ned's honour clearly had meaning. :) And GRRM contrasted Ned with Stannis when it came to extreme honour. That wasn't Ned's failing.

Ok, i didn't explain myself about ned's honor. When i say meaningless i mean honor without actual purpose but itself. Ned should have learn the difference between being honorable and being stupid, and being less honorable and more clever. (and i think we all agree on this point :D)

Exactly. Tolerated. Nobody is pretending its not wrong.

There are a few reasons why the NW is failing. The lack of a real obvious threat is one. The KG is another (as in, here is another elite celibate order dedicated to the realm). The unification of Westeros is another.

I do imagine Mole Town has always existed. But the % of participation probably has changed.

I think we will never undertand each other. I don't think it's wrong, and i don't see aby reason why it should be considered wrong. Nobody does. Now you can say this is because the NW is falling, but i see sex as the last of NW's problems.

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The vows are meant to involve celibacy. Same for the vows of the Kingsguard. The fact that many of the men go to Moletown to look for "buried treasure", and that the Watch basically has to look the other way, is given as a sign of how far the Watch has fallen.
I have to think that the Night's Watch has always 'looked the other way' although maybe to a lesser extent at times in the past. Let's just call it "don't ask, don't tell" of Westeros ;). (Sidebar: I am for equal rights for gays in the military, not trying to indicate otherwise).

I think there are other much bigger reflections of how the Night's Watch has fallen; the disarray of the castles, the lack of manpower, the lack of trained fighters, supplies, etc. Just my opinion though ;)

Also, there are some fascinating glimpses of even worse times for the Night's Watch in a lot of ways; like that mad guy running around lopping his brother's heads off en masse, etc. I'd love to get a little more backstory some day of all that stuff, however unlikely it is we see it.

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When i say meaningless i mean honor without actual purpose but itself.

No. Its funny how people can forget (or misinterpret) 3 major plot events and fail to grasp Ned's character. One event revolves around the central mystery in the Song of Ice and Fire. Was Ned's honour without purpose there? And practically his very last act again showed his conflict between honour and purpose. Again he didn't choose honour.

People deride Ned because he wasn't prepared to let Cersei's kids be murdered but honour wouldn't require him to intervene to save those kids. So no, pointing at honour as his failing would be incorrect. There is more to Ned than that.

And everyone wants Ned to be clever but very few can match LF. I'm not going to be very critical of him there.

I don't think it's wrong, and i don't see aby reason why it should be considered wrong. Nobody does.

Nobody thinks its wrong? Its pretty clear that people think its wrong. :P Fair enough if you yourself would be happy to visit Mole Town but don't fool yourself and think that everyone agrees with you.

But yes, the NW does have other more serious problems. A few more honourable men wouldn't hurt though.

I think there are other much bigger reflections of how the Night's Watch has fallen; the disarray of the castles, the lack of manpower, the lack of trained fighters, supplies, etc.

Undoubtedly. But the participation levels into Mole Town is a sign.

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Also, Maester Aemon once said Jon their vows are meant to not make the NW love. That means no wives and not children. This is why i think that in the NW occasional sex is tolerated.. until there is not an actual sentimental bound there is not problem.

...Well, can you say 10000 men giving up the possibility of having sex forever? I can't. If they could get laid at least once in a while, the situation becomes understandable. (and tolerable!)

I think you are onto what I was getting from the text, the Night Watch is meant to be a sacrifice, men who give up their names and claims to the world. Taking the black means that this is now your sole purpose in life, you are no longer connected to anything else, the reason they don't get involved in wars south of the Wall, or have families and children, as they might be tempted to leave to help them if needed. You are married to the defense of the Wall.

But a man is a man, and like eating and sleeping, other needs arise. Needs that like eating or sleeping, have dire effects if not met. I offer as an example, celibate priests and priests who are allowed to marry. One of them spends a far greater amount of time in the headlines for having no relief and running afoul when they eventually crack. Not all crack, surely, some men are stronger than others and the need is stronger in some than others.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that one of the previous Lord Commanders decreed no whoring at all, and probably kept the Stark of the time chasing down quite a few deserters. Mole Town, is probably a necessary evil, likely one of many similar along the Wall's huge span.

Nobody thinks its wrong? Its pretty clear that people think its wrong. :P Fair enough if you yourself would be happy to visit Mole Town but don't fool yourself and think that everyone agrees with you. But yes, the NW does have other more serious problems. A few more honourable men wouldn't hurt though.

I can't tell if you are equating dis-honorable with breaking the spirit of the oath, or having desire of the flesh? I certainly hope the former. Honorable or not, the NW just needs men. I am certain they would take two less-than honorable over one honorable these days.

Undoubtedly. But the participation levels into Mole Town is a sign.

This is flawed logic. The NW ranks are a much higher percentage now of men, who by design as criminals, have much lower impulse control.

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Undoubtedly. But the participation levels into Mole Town is a sign.
The series is littered with examples of otherwise honorable men who fathered bastards, had mistresses, etc. Why should the men of the Night's Watch be any different, past or present? The books talk about the Night's Watch definitively being a shadow of itself, but I do not recall anything saying that the vows used to be honored more strictly in the past in that regard.

I don't think there's anything definitive either way, but I don't really feel that this particular foible is a substantive difference from the past.

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The series is littered with examples of otherwise honorable men who fathered bastards, had mistresses, etc. Why should the men of the Night's Watch be any different, past or present? The books talk about the Night's Watch definitively being a shadow of itself, but I do not recall anything saying that the vows used to be honored more strictly in the past in that regard.

I don't think there's anything definitive either way, but I don't really feel that this particular foible is a substantive difference from the past.

:agree:

No. Its funny how people can forget (or misinterpret) 3 major plot events and fail to grasp Ned's character. One event revolves around the central mystery in the Song of Ice and Fire. Was Ned's honour without purpose there? And practically his very last act again showed his conflict between honour and purpose. Again he didn't choose honour.

IMHO ned's idea of honor is meaningless.

/OT:

As you said, sometimes he didn't choose honor, so Ned is not better than anyone else.

The problem is - he acts like he is better than anyone else, and he lies to himself to not admit some inconvenient truts.

A couple of examples: Ned judges Cersei as soon as he learn what she has done, without think about the reasons she can have. And when he finds out everything, he has nothing better to say than "do not know which of you I pity most". He does pity her, of course. Please. Of course Ned is a god guy and has never done such things.. because he has never been in a situation like cersei's.

(dont get me wrong here: i think ned is right in this situation and cersei has no excuses... but i know the background. Ned didn't.).

And what about Jaime?

He condamns Jaime for his kingslaying, when he should be grateful. He is angry because somebody else has done something that maybe ned himself was willing to do - and he would never admitted to himself. But jaime killed aerys, not ned. So then ned is revenged and he can come back despising jaime and feeling good - because he has never get his hands dirty. IMHO this is hypocrisy and bigotry.

IMHO ned belongs to that world we start seeing when we first read the books, where the kingts wear sparkling armors and everything is beautiful and shining. Then you understand that things are not what they look like and that honor is a great thing, but deeds work better.

/OT

Ok, i'm done :D

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I can't tell if you are equating dis-honorable with breaking the spirit of the oath, or having desire of the flesh? I certainly hope the former.

The former.

Honorable or not, the NW just needs men. I am certain they would take two less-than honorable over one honorable these days.

That's one of those circular arguments. Accept the scum => fewer honourable people wanting to join => needing more scum.

The NW is in that cycle at the moment. We'll see what Jon can do to break it.

The NW ranks are a much higher percentage now of men, who by design as criminals, have much lower impulse control.

That's a strange way to say it. Impulse control? They are criminals. Its all tied into what I am saying anyhow. More criminals leads to more use of Mole Town.

Why should the men of the Night's Watch be any different, past or present?.

We know its different. We know it relies on criminals more. While honourable people will break their vows, the percentage will be lower. I'm not saying anything very astute. Its just percentages.

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As you said, sometimes he didn't choose honor, so Ned is not better than anyone else.

Again no. You were attacking him for having extreme honour and now you are attacking him for not having enough honour. He can't really win can he?

Ned doesn't think he is better than everyone else. Better than the Kingslayer? Yes, but everyone derides the Kingslayer. The Kingsguard is a sacred order. Jaime did besmirch that (and i'm a big Jaime fan). He then was too arrogant to explain why he was driven to commit that assassination. Jaime brought it all on himself (I don't really blame him for that. But I certainly don't blame Ned for that)..

Ned certainly got his hands dirty. He is all about getting his hands dirty. He was the main general in the rebellion. He faced off with the rest of the Kingsguard. He would probably have been willing to kill Aerys himself. But a Kingsguard turning on the king? For no apparent reason except hubris?

Ned judges Cersei as soon as he learn what she has done, without think about the reasons she can have.

Seriously? He should have forgiven incest? :)

because he has never been in a situation like cersei's.

What? Ned needs to commit incest?

Ned is a very complicated misunderstood character. I love the guy. :)

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Again no. You were attacking him for having extreme honour and now you are attacking him for not having enough honour. He can't really win can he?

:D

I attack ned because he has extreme honor (a very rigid kind of) most of times, times in which he seems to try to forget that he had his own part of not-so-honorable actions

Ned doesn't think he is better than everyone else. Better than the Kingslayer? Yes, but everyone derides the Kingslayer. The Kingsguard is a sacred order. Jaime did besmirch that (and i'm a big Jaime fan). He then was too arrogant to explain why he was driven to commit that assassination. Jaime brought it all on himself (I don't really blame him for that. But I certainly don't blame Ned for that)..

Ned is the only one who shouldn't deride the kingslayer at all.

Im a big Jaime fan too, and i think he did a great thing then (he saved a bunch of people). Then he didn't explain the situation, but ned wouldn't even listen to him (i think this is in the books somewhere. jaime also says he didn't speak to "keep the king's secrets" keeping his wow. I don't know how much of this is self-justification, but jaime is not completely wrong here).

Of course, then Jaime stopped caring at all, becoming the cruel person everybody though him to be, so ned's despise is comprehensible... after. But not then.

Ned certainly got his hands dirty.

But he finds justifications. He doesn't want to do it again. He doesn't like thinking about. IMHO this is lying to himself

(This attitue is like that Jon POV in which he kept repeating to himself he was only "seconding" yritte, because his mission depended on that. But in the very chapter, theh he admitted the truth to himself... )

What? Ned needs to commit incest?

Ned needs to be a woman married to Robert (Ok, that looks really nasty, i'm sure you get the point :D)

Of course, cersei was banging jaime before her marriage and she has never tought to stop, but ned didn't know that

Ned is a very complicated misunderstood character. I love the guy. :)

Oh, me too.

I mean, i like ned...i'm just playing devil's advocate to explain my definition of "ned-ish"

Ok, how did we end up talking about ned? :)

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That's a strange way to say it. Impulse control? They are criminals. Its all tied into what I am saying anyhow. More criminals leads to more use of Mole Town.

Fine.

So, I wonder where does the new criminal NW syndicate get money for these visits. NW is an unpaid position, no?

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Fine.

So, I wonder where does the new criminal NW syndicate get money for these visits. NW is an unpaid position, no?

as far as we know... actally, I've never thought about this

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I attack ned because he has extreme honor (a very rigid kind of) most of times, times in which he seems to try to forget that he had his own part of not-so-honorable actions.

Honestly, at this point, its clear that I will never agree with you. :) You have that completely backwards. He is honourable but he doesn't have some extreme version of honour (that say Stannis has). For example, he wouldn't tell Robert that Jon is Rhaegar's son.

jaime also says he didn't speak to "keep the king's secrets" keeping his wow. I don't know how much of this is self-justification, but jaime is not completely wrong here).

I don't recall that at all. And if it was true then he broke that vow in aSoS and aCoK when he explains what happened to Brienne and Cat.

I think Ned would have listened. Catelyn listened and she despised him too. Jaime was too arrogant (and too young) to explain himself. Jaime built his own bed of nails.

But he finds justifications.

Of course. Ned is honourable. He isn't going to get his hands dirty for bad reasons. And of course he never wants to get his hands dirty. It haunts him when he does (think of his reaction to the very first thing he does in aGoT). Think of how Lyanna haunts him.

And i've no idea what you mean about "lying to himself". The fact that a 16 year old Jon did lie to himself doesn't say anything about Ned.

Of course, cersei was banging jaime before her marriage and she has never tought to stop, but ned didn't know that

Is that relevant? Its pretty obvious that Ned wouldn't commit incest.

My definition of Neddish...a very decent man. Or, a very misunderstood man.

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I don't see a lot of Ned being judgmental toward anyone save Jaime and Ser Jorah. A lot of what I am reading here seems to be more directed at opinions held by readers and less at those actually expressed by Lord Eddard.

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Doesn't keeping a promise to his dying sister have its own kind of honour, though? Not that we know Jon is R+L for a fact but if he was, then I can't see Ned breaking a vow to his beloved dead sister (and especially if it meant not protecting her innocent kid).

I think Ned's definition of honour is more realistic and pragmatic and even, well, intrinsically more noble. He warns Cersei to save her kids' lives, though one could argue he had a duty to his King and bestie to be honest with him. That's 1 reason I admire Ned. He isn't naive. He just chooses to value things like innocent lives, and even if he dies for it, that doesn't make him wrong.

In a way that's what he died for. No warning to Cersei may have borne better fruit.

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Ned doesn't think he is better than everyone else. Better than the Kingslayer? Yes, but everyone derides the Kingslayer. The Kingsguard is a sacred order. Jaime did besmirch that (and i'm a big Jaime fan). He then was too arrogant to explain why he was driven to commit that assassination. Jaime brought it all on himself (I don't really blame him for that. But I certainly don't blame Ned for that)..

Do you think Ned might have dug deeper, though, if the Kingslayer had been Arthur Dayne or Gerold Hightower or Barristan Selmy and not Jaime Lannister? (I like to think that those famously honorable knights wouldn't have stood aside while Aerys blew up King's Landing, but maybe I'm wrong and only Jaime had the chutzpah to break his vows :P) I think some of Ned's insta-condemnation was the fact that Jaime's act coincided with Tywin's betrayal of Aerys too by entering the city under false pretenses and then turning on the King, not to mention that it's very clear that the murder of Rhaegar's children bothers Ned a great deal. (It actually bothers Jaime as well - or at any rate, he has guilty visions of Rhaegar condemning him for not acting to save Elia and her children - but Ned is not to know that.) I think the immediacy of the sack of King's Landing immediately after Jaime kills Aerys is something that leads everyone to believe Jaime killed Aerys as part of some Lannister plot to take over the throne and Ned shares that view.

If someone as famed for his honor as Arthur Dayne had done what Jaime did, probably people would have wondered why he broke his vows beyond just thinking that it's par for the course with those Lannisters!

I like Ned too and it's noble of him to wish to spare Cersei's innocent children a grisly death (well, Tommen and Myrcella are innocent :P) but I think where he veers into 'not smart' is to assume that Cersei and Tywin and Jaime will just accept his ultimatum and leave the country. Ned has JUST experienced what Jaime did to him and his men because of the capture of Tyrion, so why on earth would he assume Cersei would be less ruthless than her brother? That's naive and wishful thinking and I put it down to Ned being high on pain meds for his broken leg.

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I agree with Padraig on the circular argument. Members of the nights watch are ignoring their vows BECAUSE for the most part they are now conscripted. And the reason for conscription is why the nights watch has fallen from grace as a whole, aka: People aren't interested and don't understand the possible threat. Its seen as a joke.

I also disagree that these roles and the sense of duty which comes with them are meaningless. The highest sense of duty for a member of the kingsguard is to protect the king, otherwise the order becomes meaningless as a whole. Same situation with the nightswatch. And since both these roles ARE important, Ned's concept of honor is certainly not meaningless (though you could definitely argue against it, there's quite obviously meaning there).

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Honestly, at this point, its clear that I will never agree with you. :)

:agree:

Ok we agree we'll never agree. :D

Now, i propose a new question: how do the NW find money to pay all of the mole's town ladies?

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I think Ned's definition of honour is more realistic and pragmatic and even, well, intrinsically more noble.

Yes. That's very true. A man with an extreme form of honour would never have made that vow to Lyanna in the first place. Ned knew what was he was swearing to.

Do you think Ned might have dug deeper, though, if the Kingslayer had been Arthur Dayne or Gerold Hightower or Barristan Selmy and not Jaime Lannister? (I like to think that those famously honorable knights wouldn't have stood aside while Aerys blew up King's Landing, but maybe I'm wrong and only Jaime had the chutzpah to break his vows tongue.gif)

Fair point. You can criticise Ned a little there. Lannister's reputation (and actions) ensured people didn't give Jaime the benefit of the doubt. Hard to know what the other KG would have done though. I think that will be explored in the books later.

That's naive and wishful thinking and I put it down to Ned being high on pain meds for his broken leg.

I don't think trusting the Lannisters was the problem. Trusting LF is what doomed him. And LF has fooled everyone.

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