Bakker XIII: Spoilers for PON, TJE, and Neuropath/Disciple

[Old Nan]

A glooming peace this Dûnyain with him brings;

The sranc, past Osthwai, slaughtered or are fled.

And so the Consult with the Tekne sings:

That Ordeal may be punishingly bled

By the reaver of Men and Nonmen's woe,

The dread No-God, the lovers' Mog-Pharau.

[Returned]

Wonderful, a new thread. I just almost finished the entirety of PON and I have a few points I'd like to throw out that you guys have undoubtly seen many times before, I hope you can indulge me and provide some different theories and views.

- The Dunyain are quite obviously the most intellectual, dangerous and influential creatures in this world created by Bakker. This makes me wonder, however, at how it's possible that they're seemingly ignorant of world-defining events such as the Apocalypse, the existence of the No-God/consult and sorcery. I do not understand if this is possible, even if they've completely been isolated.

- Also, I feel like the books are less and less about the coming apocalypse and more and more about people's inability to resist Kellhus. Every POV that's read will either be of someone devoted entirely to Kellhus, or is so conflicted about him that you end up reading mostly about Kellhus. His largely uncontested totalitarian control is fun to read but I think after some time it gives a limited satisfaction. It's like reading about a world where every single living being is following one religion and believe in one God, named Kellhus. And I admit it becomes something like a drag, to the point of me really looking forward to Achamian's chapters. I hope in TJE and further Bakker will credit some people with good hearts, capable of following their own justified goals without being enslaved to Kellhus.

Thank you for reading this. :)

[Maithanet]

- The Dunyain are quite obviously the most intellectual, dangerous and influential creatures in this world created by Bakker. This makes me wonder, however, at how it's possible that they're seemingly ignorant of world-defining events such as the Apocalypse, the existence of the No-God/consult and sorcery. I do not understand if this is possible, even if they've completely been isolated.

Well, I would say that have forgotten because they chose to. When Ishual was first founded, they had some knowledge of things like Sorcery and the Apocalypse, but they have hidden that knowledge away, such that even key members such as Moengus and Kellhus do not know of them. If any Dunyain know it at all remains to be seen.

- Also, I feel like the books are less and less about the coming apocalypse and more and more about people's inability to resist Kellhus.

Yup. Achamian said that Kellhus in the harbinger of the apocalypse. He didn't realize how right he was.

Every POV that's read will either be of someone devoted entirely to Kellhus, or is so conflicted about him that you end up reading mostly about Kellhus. His largely uncontested totalitarian control is fun to read but I think after some time it gives a limited satisfaction. It's like reading about a world where every single living being is following one religion and believe in one God, named Kellhus.

You are not the only person to complain that every character's Kellhus-gushing is tiresome. I agree to some extent, although I see where Bakker is going with it.

And I admit it becomes something like a drag, to the point of me really looking forward to Achamian's chapters. I hope in TJE and further Bakker will credit some people with good hearts, capable of following their own justified goals without being enslaved to Kellhus.

Well, you are going to have to read TJE. But I think the simple answer is that the irresistibly of Kellhus is the entire point. Some people (Bakker himself?) have argued that Kellhus represented modernity, which would explain why he is so indomitable. Although the Amish might have something to say about that (but not on this board - ZING!)

Anyway, I agree that Kellhus is something that most people are unable to resist. His LogicLove attack is simply too strong. But that doesn't mean that things go entirely his way in the next books. TJE shows the resistance to Kellhus' expanding cult of personality, and I suggest you read on to find out where it leads.

[pat5150]

Only two chapters plus the epilogue to go, and I must say that Bakker throws a number of curveballs throughout TWLW.

So far, the Momemn and Great Ordeal storylines have been very good, while the sojourn to Sauglish has been slow-moving. But let's see how Scott will close the show. The ending of TJE was the shit, so chances are that it will be the same for TWLW...

More soon! ;)

Patrick

[Cantabile]

I hope in TJE and further Bakker will credit some people with good hearts, capable of following their own justified goals without being enslaved to Kellhus.

TJE certainly contains more opposition to Kellhus, but none of the character's in the series really have "good hearts" in my opinion, and I doubt that will change. Tortured, tragic characters are the atmosphere of Bakker's works.

[jurble]

Why a new thread? The old one isn't locked! Or art thou so proud of your poem?

[Curethan]

People living in the greatest era of freedom and democracy seem just as tortured and tragic. <_<

I enjoyed the festive poem too, thx nan *****

[Gabriele]

Why a new thread? The old one isn't locked! Or art thou so proud of your poem?

New threads are usually started when the old one reaches 20 pages.

But Bakker will have to work harder to reach the number of threads Goodkind has in this forum. ;)

[Renasko]

Why a new thread? The old one isn't locked! Or art thou so proud of your poem?

The thread number is now 13. This, combined with the changing in his avatar is a sign of the oncoming Apocalypse.

Ya'll need to stop living in Disneyworld.

:P

[Renasko]

The 'Disneyworld' reference would, of course, be from 'Neuropath'. See for more information.

Anyways, I'm re-reading the PoN series for what feels like the first time. Everything is remarkably fresh and clear and it's proving to be a more smooth ride than the last time I read it. Currently on tWP; halfway through with that. The story is dwelling on Kellhus's thoughts, that bastard, and he's considering how well he's manipulated Serwe and his future use of Esme (the Whore).

Now, that's all plain and apparent to everyone, but it's his thoughts concerning Akka that're jumping off the page for me. I've always found their relationship curious. Infuriating, but it does hold a lot of purpose. I've never considered it before, but their separation/falling-out seems inevitable now. Kellhus wanted it to be that way. It is all a test, to shape him for the Second Apocalypse.

But Drusas Achamian, Kellhus knew, was stronger than anyone, especially Drusas Achamian, suspected. Some men frittered themselves away with incessant doubt and reflection until it seemed they had no shape they could grasp hold of. Some men had to be hewed by the crude axe of the world.

Tested.

"Tell me," Kellhus said, "how much must a teacher give?"

Kellhus, by this stage, has adopted the role of the teacher himself. He's transferred positions with Akka and is now shaping him for the future. In a scene not long before, he openly rebukes Akka, reminding him of his father, and now he appeals to his vanity in hope that he'll be enriched by the outcome. Clever.

I've always felt Akka left by his own free will. That he wanted to leave the Holy War behind, but instead, he was pushed. For the sake of Earwa.

Hmm...in the meantime...

*scoots off to read past threads to see whether he's reiterating or not*

[Happy Ent]

Why is this thread, too, labelled as “Spoilers for WLW”. I’d rather this thread did not contain, or invite, such spoilers. The book is out real soon, already in the hands of one board member.

Instead, I’d like a separate WLW spoiler thread when the time comes. So please remove the “Spoilers for WLW” part from the title.

[Happy Ent]

This makes me wonder, however, at how it's possible that they're seemingly ignorant of world-defining events such as the Apocalypse, the existence of the No-God/consult and sorcery. I do not understand if this is possible, even if they've completely been isolated.

The “repudiate history,” it’s one of their defining characteristics from the faction glossary (quoted from memory). Forgetting stuff and wilful ignorance is what they do, part of their philosophy. History it is useless to them. Worse, it’s dangerous, the very sickness they try to escape from.

(Is this weird? It sure is. Crazy bunch, those monks.)

[Cantabile]

I just picked up Neuropath and Disciple of the Dog. I feel almost ashamed that it took me so long despite Bakker being my favorite author. Disciple was featured prominently in the "new releases" shelf for mysteries, while Neuropath was unfortunately down at the very bottom shelf, scarcely visible. A shame there's no mass-market paperback for Disciple yet, as it's a pretty short book to shell out 20$ for.

Can't wait to hibernate this weekend and have a Bakker marathon.

[lokisnow]

- Also, I feel like the books are less and less about the coming apocalypse and more and more about people's inability to resist Kellhus. Every POV that's read will either be of someone devoted entirely to Kellhus, or is so conflicted about him that you end up reading mostly about Kellhus. His largely uncontested totalitarian control is fun to read but I think after some time it gives a limited satisfaction. It's like reading about a world where every single living being is following one religion and believe in one God, named Kellhus. And I admit it becomes something like a drag, to the point of me really looking forward to Achamian's chapters. I hope in TJE and further Bakker will credit some people with good hearts, capable of following their own justified goals without being enslaved to Kellhus.

Thank you for reading this. :)

One of the things that has me sort of convinced Kellhus is an antichrist figure (or at least an attempt to fuck with messianic/god figures in general and have not all said figures actions be self evidently good) is that Kellhus is basically an Orson Scott Card hero, but seen through a lens that portrays such characteristics as evil. The key defining feature of all OSC heroes is that they are Christ analogues (they will probably have to martyr themselves at some point) and every single one looks into the faces of the people around them and knows their heart and loves them and with a few words showing the depth of their understanding and love for the other people the hero makes all the other people love him selflessly and totally without criticism or exception. The hero then tends to take over the world/community and lead it to a great edenical peace and propserity. Except for the evil lying jealous nefarious people who are evil lying jealous and nefarious because they don't instantly love the hero. They all want to cause the world to burn (which is what happens when you don't follow the leader hero) because they are selfish bad people. So it's funny, for me, to see all the characteristics of an OSC hero in Kellhus but that the characterization is inverted.

[kuenjato]

Only two chapters plus the epilogue to go, and I must say that Bakker throws a number of curveballs throughout TWLW.

So far, the Momemn and Great Ordeal storylines have been very good, while the sojourn to Sauglish has been slow-moving. But let's see how Scott will close the show. The ending of TJE was the shit, so chances are that it will be the same for TWLW...

More soon! ;)

Patrick

So there's a palpable sense of escalation? All the crazy stuff in TJE occured in the last two Akka chapters, from what I remember (divided by a similar breakdown chapter in Momemn).

Perhaps you can answer this after you've completed it, but how does WLW stand with the others? As the fifth in an overall saga?

[Calibandar]

Looking forward to a swift ( and extensive) review Pat :)

[candysyum]

A shame there's no mass-market paperback for Disciple yet, as it's a pretty short book to shell out 20$ for.Can't wait to hibernate this weekend and have a Bakker marathon.

You can get new hardcovers on amazon for 12$ counting tax and shipping. Just go to the used tab(there's still new ones there).

[Cantabile]

200 pages into Neuropath and am adoring it. I follow up on neuroscience research, so none of the content is coming as a surprise, but it's still a riveting read. The prose is a lovely balance between the poetical prose of PoN, and the more mainstream prose of mystery and thrillers. My only complaint is that the characters seem like vehicles for the exploration of Bakker's concepts, rather than real people. Theme taking precedence over characterization isn't always a bad thing, though.

I feel bad: I accidentally pissed on the book. Literally, not figuratively. :stillsick:

[pat5150]

Little quote from Kellhus: Love is for lesser souls.

And women say romance is dead! :P

Patrick

[Shryke]

Little quote from Kellhus: Love is for lesser souls.

And women say romance is dead! :P

Patrick

That's what I tell my GF when she asks why I haven't proposed to her yet.