The Line Between Author and Ink

[Underfoot]

Regarding religion, or rather atheists, it's difficult for fantasy authors, I think. The cast of characters tend not to understand their universe very well. They probably don't know about evolution, or the history of the universe, or how their own bodies really work. If you're not going to offer religion as an answer to it, the most you can do is probably ignore it (though frankly that seems implausible to me). You could of course include religion and take pot-shots at the corruption of religious institutions or the danger of fanatical religious devotion, but that's not really talking about atheism.

So without really the option for a fantasy writer's cast of characters to be atheists, I'm not surprised some just embrace it and write about gods as though they were real. (It is a fantasy, after all. :P )

Science fiction authors, though, have potentially much more to say about religion, which is one of the reasons I prefer it as a genre. Maybe the more atheist-inclined gravitate more towards this genre too.

You should try S.L. Farrell's Nessantico Cycle. In it, he writes from both an atheistic ("Numetodo") and religious perspective. It's a very interesting mash up. The religous people follow "Cenzi," which is very similar to the Christian god. They believe that Cenzi bestows magic upon a select few, who become priests. The Numetodo, on the other hand, are scientists who argue for evolution.

I think it was well done and portrayed both religion and atheism decently in a fantasy world.

[Cantabile]

You should try S.L. Farrell's Nessantico Cycle. In it, he writes from both an atheistic ("Numetodo") and religious perspective. It's a very interesting mash up. The religous people follow "Cenzi," which is very similar to the Christian god. They believe that Cenzi bestows magic upon a select few, who become priests. The Numetodo, on the other hand, are scientists who argue for evolution.

I think it was well done and portrayed both religion and atheism decently in a fantasy world.

Do you know if the author is an atheist or not? Would back up the whole "only atheists write atheist characters" theory :P

[Eponine]

Canta, are there any good examples of atheism leaking through? Of course there are well known ones for Christianity, but I don't think I've seen any books where I can say "yeah, definitely preaching atheism". But I am not particularly well read when it comes to fantasy.

His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman would be the big notable parallel to the Chronicles of Narnia. The Prydain Chronicles are also children/YA books with an atheistic ending. I can't think of any books written for an adult audience that are similarly "preachy".

I was going to speculate that children's books can get away with being more overt because of being more simplistic and less nuanced, but now that I say that, I have doubts that it's true. A lot of adult books are simplistic and black and white.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Eponine,

I didn't take any religious message from the Chronicles of Prydian. Is it really seen as promoting Atheism?

[Lummel]

The Prydain Chronicles are also children/YA books with an atheistic ending.

Eponine,

I didn't take any religious message from the Chronicles of Prydian. Is it really seen as promoting Atheism?

Ha! I was wondering the very same, but hadn't Arwen(sp?) and Achren claimed to be gods or wanted to be worshiped as gods but die and I suppose that could be seen as an atheistic message, but then by that argument surely then the wizard of Oz could be seen as an atheistic text?

[Eponine]

In the last book,

after Arawn is defeated, magic leaves Prydain and the Sons of Don are preparing to leave for the Summer Country - including Gwydion and Eilonwy. Taran is invited to leave with them as a reward. In the Summer Country, there's no death and no suffering. Instead of choosing to go to the land of eternal life, Taran decides to stay in Prydain, fulfill his promises, and rebuild the country. He never gets another chance to go to the Summer Country and the book ends by saying that eventually he passed into distant memory. ETA: And by choosing to stay with him, Eilonwy must give up her magic.

To me, this is the absolute statement of humanist atheism - to choose a full life as a human on earth over the promise of eternal life - even real eternal life. It's not a religious message - it's not about god just as humanism doesn't need to be about god (although in a Christian society, deliberately rejecting eternal life will naturally be linked with the Christian idea of heaven). And I don't think that it's a "promotion" or that it hits your children over the head - it wasn't even on the list of banned things at my Baptist school (unlike Goosebumps, Judy Blume, Smurfs, Trapper Keepers, Ninja Turtles and anything D&D)

I don't know the author's intentions - but if I were trying to explain my beliefs as an atheist to a child, this is the book that I would want them to read.

[Lummel]

Thank you Eponine I liked the way you explained that. I was only introduced to religion at the age of five or six in school when I had a particularly religious teacher, so the ending hasn't had the same reasonance for me, leastwise not consciously, until now.

I don't know anything about Lloyd Alexander other than that he is American, I'm not even sure if he is still alive, I've no idea about his intentions or beliefs either.

[VarysTheSpider]

You should try S.L. Farrell's Nessantico Cycle. In it, he writes from both an atheistic ("Numetodo") and religious perspective. It's a very interesting mash up. The religous people follow "Cenzi," which is very similar to the Christian god. They believe that Cenzi bestows magic upon a select few, who become priests. The Numetodo, on the other hand, are scientists who argue for evolution.

I think it was well done and portrayed both religion and atheism decently in a fantasy world.

Thanks for the rec. I just read a review on Amazon and someone gave it 2 stars while comparing it to ASOIAF, so definitely worth a look.

I just started my first fantasy book in years actually, Before They Were Hanged by Joe Abercrombie. So far, no religion (though I have no idea what his views on the matter are). :dunno:

[williamjm]

I don't know anything about Lloyd Alexander other than that he is American, I'm not even sure if he is still alive.

Alexander died in 2007 at the age of 83.

[Liadin]

Tolkien on religion in his work (from the wiki):

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.

IIRC Lewis did much the same thing in Narnia: there wasn't any religion practiced there, was there?

[Cantabile]

Tolkien on religion in his work (from the wiki):

IIRC Lewis did much the same thing in Narnia: there wasn't any religion practiced there, was there?

I don't remember any religions explicitely, but he didn't try to incorporate Christianity into his work without being explicit about it like Tolkein did. Tolkein himself was unhappy about how Lewis used blunt Christian allegories in Narnia.

[Galactus]

RE: Atheist writers getting religion.

What about Pratchett?

[Liadin]

I don't remember any religions explicitely, but he didn't try to incorporate Christianity into his work without being explicit about it like Tolkein did. Tolkein himself was unhappy about how Lewis used blunt Christian allegories in Narnia.

Right, the wiki mentions that as well. I find it interesting that J.K. Rowling does much the same thing--religion never comes up in the books, and then she has Harry killed and resurrected much the way Aslan is. No idea of her personal beliefs though. I know a lot of people think she's an atheist based on having a good-vs-evil struggle without reference to religion (presumably distinguishing Tolkien etc. on the basis that Rowling isn't writing in a secondary world), but the sacrifice bit throws a wrench in that. Doesn't mean she's religious of course; anyone growing up in a Christian culture is going to be familiar with certain motifs, and she could have simply chosen that because she felt it made for good storytelling.

[Cantabile]

I am pretty sure I recall that Rowling is a Christian.

[Underfoot]

Do you know if the author is an atheist or not? Would back up the whole "only atheists write atheist characters" theory :P

I couldn't tell you, sorry. A quick google search didn't turn up anything either.

He's also written as Matthew Farrell and Stephen Leigh, who is a Wild Cards contributing author. :dunno:

[enigma]

I'm late to the Bakker=misogynist discussion, but I'd like to add that I don't think Bakker is a misogynist. At least not more so than most other male authors - there's certainly worst offenders in the fantasy genre. Bakker's problem is that he is unable to write female characters. I think this points more to his failings as an author, rather than his possible blatant misogyny. If he could write female characters as good as Martin, his books would certainly improve.

I think Bakker tried to improve on this aspect in The Judging Eye, but I don't think he was successful. It's too bad really - every time I read a female POV in his Second Apocalypse series I'm bored out of my mind and I skim the pages. I've thought about a few characters he could have switched to female to make his books more interesting. I think Kellhus' father, Moenghus, could have been his mother instead. The Dunyain are sufficiently isolated from the rest of Earwa that Kellhus's mother wouldn't be hindered by her social circumstances.

[Old Nan]

If Martin's female characters were transplanted into Bakker's world, the accusations of misogyny would definitely increase. Esmenet is more a modern and individuated woman than anyone Martin writes except Arya, who Martin fans frequently deride themselves, and possibly Cersei, who's admittedly kind of a walking stereotype.

Edit: Or the Martell sisters.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Cantabile,

I don't remember any religions explicitely, but he didn't try to incorporate Christianity into his work without being explicit about it like Tolkein did. Tolkein himself was unhappy about how Lewis used blunt Christian allegories in Narnia.

I always felt Lewis was much more blunt about his inclusion of religion in Narnia than Tolkien was about Middle-Earth. The Aslan/Jesus allegory is pretty difficult to miss.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

I'm late to the Bakker=misogynist discussion, but I'd like to add that I don't think Bakker is a misogynist. At least not more so than most other male authors - there's certainly worst offenders in the fantasy genre. Bakker's problem is that he is unable to write female characters. I think this points more to his failings as an author, rather than his possible blatant misogyny. If he could write female characters as good as Martin, his books would certainly improve.

I think Bakker tried to improve on this aspect in The Judging Eye, but I don't think he was successful. It's too bad really - every time I read a female POV in his Second Apocalypse series I'm bored out of my mind and I skim the pages. I've thought about a few characters he could have switched to female to make his books more interesting. I think Kellhus' father, Moenghus, could have been his mother instead. The Dunyain are sufficiently isolated from the rest of Earwa that Kellhus's mother wouldn't be hindered by her social circumstances.

Moenghus wouldn't work as a woman. That would the entire dynamic of Cnaiur's character.

[Galactus]

If Martin's female characters were transplanted into Bakker's world, the accusations of misogyny would definitely increase. Esmenet is more a modern and individuated woman than anyone Martin writes except Arya, who Martin fans frequently deride themselves, and possibly Cersei, who's admittedly kind of a walking stereotype.

Brienne.