The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[A Redeemed Hound]

King Robert Baratheon is Jon's dad. Jon is not Targeryen. No dragon dreams. Just Wolf dreams. Robert was drunk and raped Lyanna. That is the secret. Jon is the heir to the throne.

[Lord of Autumn's End]

Taken altogether, the indication is that it was at least a two part promise, something like, "protect my son, but eventually let him know who and what he is." My thinking is Ned kept part one, but not part two.

That seems most likely to me too.

'I will,' Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Interestingly enough, Ned thinks of the 'promises' he made Lyanna, and 'broken promises'. It might just be a chance typo, but both are plural. Maybe she did want him to take her home to Winterfell after all, in addition to the matter of Jon.

The first of the broken promises is probably to Robert, by defying his new King in secret by claiming Jon as his. Technically he never broke a promise or marriage vow to Catelyn, as far as we know, so that's out as a possibility. Its clearly got to be related to Lyanna in some way. Either not telling Jon who he really is or not sending him to meet with the rest of the surviving Targaryens would probably be the strongest possibility, I think.

However, we should probably note that Ned apparently thinks that he kept (all of?) "the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying".

[Manakhkubar]

King Robert Baratheon is Jon's dad. Jon is not Targeryen. No dragon dreams. Just Wolf dreams. Robert was drunk and raped Lyanna. That is the secret. Jon is the heir to the throne.

Jon as Robert's son wouldn't be his heir. He would be a bastard. However, if Lyanna told Ned that Jon was Robert's, maybe Ned promised her to tell Robert. And Robert for sure would have acknowledged the "fruit of their love" as his true son and heir, rape or no. Ned broke that promise (under that premise). Maybe he couldn't tell Robert because when he got the chance, that would have broken the Baratheon-Lannister alliance. Still doesn't work out.

[Lady Winter Rose]

King Robert Baratheon is Jon's dad. Jon is not Targeryen. No dragon dreams. Just Wolf dreams. Robert was drunk and raped Lyanna. That is the secret. Jon is the heir to the throne.

No, he is not. Remember Joffrey and his lannister gold hair? If Jon is Robert's, then Jon would be clone to King Robert.

'I will,' Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but I.Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

I see two theory.

1) He had made promises to Lyanna and he had paid some serious price to keep them.

2) He would made promises to Lyanna and he would paid some serious price to keep them

1) and I. would be likely, but 2) and I. means that he broke promises to Lyanna to kept his vows. Maybe vows to Robert?

[Manakhkubar]

No, he is not. Remember Joffrey and his lannister gold hair? If Jon is Robert's, then Jon would be clone to King Robert.

That is only a theory. We know Robert's seed is stronger than the genes of some smallfolk wenches, but I have no empirical data about how those Baratheon features would be doing against some sinister Stark material. And not from a weakling like Ned, but a real one like Lyanna.

[A Redeemed Hound]

That is only a theory. We know Robert's seed is stronger than the genes of some smallfolk wenches, but I have no empirical data about how those Baratheon features would be doing against some sinister Stark material. And not from a weakling like Ned, but a real one like Lyanna.

Jon has Stark features but all of Roberts bastards have black hair...like Jon Snow. And those with Targeryan blood in them have dragon dreams. Jon only has wolf dreams. And the timeline would make more sense if Lyanna was preg. when taken by Rhaegar. Robert has a tendency to get drunk and force himself on women. On another note...Tyrion is a Targeryan due to his dragon dreams and love of dragons. His dad is not Tywin.

[Sidonie]

IIRC, I thought Jon Snow has brown hair and grey eyes...like Arya. And plus, even if Robert raped Lyanna, that would mean Jon was still a bstard...so why wouldn't Gendry, who's older, be the heir?

[Maegor Targaryen]

IIRC, I thought Jon Snow has brown hair and grey eyes...like Arya. And plus, even if Robert raped Lyanna, that would mean Jon was still a bstard...so why wouldn't Gendry, who's older, be the heir?

bastards cant be kings unless the king gives them the trueborn name of their father.

[A Redeemed Hound]

bastards cant be kings unless the king gives them the trueborn name of their father.

I thought Jon, Rickon, and Arya had black hair? I have to check. But Jon Snow is older than Gendry isn't he? He would be the 1st bastard. And remember that he is really a Stark now. The letter that Rob Stark (King of the North) wrote and gave to his mother made Jon a Stark and not a bastard.

The one thing that makes me really doubt Jon being the son of Rhaegar is the lack of dragon dreams. No interest in dragons at all. All Targaryens dream of dragons. Jon is not Targaryen. Dany is. Tyrion is. The third head needs to be as well.

[Sidonie]

The one thing that makes me really doubt Jon being the son of Rhaegar is the lack of dragon dreams. No interest in dragons at all. All Targaryens dream of dragons. Jon is not Targaryen. Dany is. Tyrion is. The third head needs to be as well.

Well, you have to remember Jon's a warg. None of the [other?] Targs are, atleast not that we know of.

[HawkZ]

The one thing that makes me really doubt Jon being the son of Rhaegar is the lack of dragon dreams. No interest in dragons at all. All Targaryens dream of dragons.

We don't know that Jon's never dreamed of dragons/has no interest in them... Given how popular R+L=J is already putting in dragon dreams would pretty much be a complete giveaway on GRRM's part.

Also, I could have missed something but where does it say that all Targs have dragon dreams? Dany's the only Targ dreams we've seen, yes? Or is this an Egg thing?

[Sidonie]

Also, I could have missed something but where does it say that all Targs have dragon dreams? Dany's the only Targ dreams we've seen, yes? Or is this an Egg thing?

In AFFC, a dying Maester Aemon told Sam he dreamed of dragons, and said something about how this is a trait of Targaryans. I don't think he said ALL of them do this, though.

[A Redeemed Hound]

We don't know that Jon's never dreamed of dragons/has no interest in them... Given how popular R+L=J is already putting in dragon dreams would pretty much be a complete giveaway on GRRM's part.

Also, I could have missed something but where does it say that all Targs have dragon dreams? Dany's the only Targ dreams we've seen, yes? Or is this an Egg thing?

Maester Aemon said it in one of the books. And he dreams of dragons too. The other Targ who we have seen who has dragon dreams is Tyrion. Trust me on this. That is why Tywin quit being the hand. The mad king knocked up Tywin's wife and used Jaime as a prisoner of sorts by making him a knight of the kingsguard to protect his unborn child. Another reason why Tywin turned on him during Robert's rebellion.

Of course there are many books left to go (which will never be done) and GRRM can just pop any new person in them to kill all theories. The only person left alive I think whou would know for certain is Howland Reed and we ain't seen him yet.

But to me the fact that R+L=J is so popular is exactly why it is not the case.

[HawkZ]

Ohhhh, that's right! I can't believe I forgot that, I love that Chapter. :bang:

It's interesting, R+L=J is definitely what I believe, but Jon really doesn't have a whole lot of "Targaryenness" to him so far... Unless of course you count his attraction to firery women & that's really a bit of a stretch. Although to be fair, in some ways Rhaegar doesn't sound as stereotypically Targaryen as say, Dany.

Obviously if the theory is wrong it doesn't matter, but assuming that Jon is Rheagar's kid does Jon's blatant "Starkness" have any story significance, or is it just the books having a nurture over nature moment?

[Maegor Targaryen]

I thought Jon, Rickon, and Arya had black hair? I have to check. But Jon Snow is older than Gendry isn't he? He would be the 1st bastard. And remember that he is really a Stark now. The letter that Rob Stark (King of the North) wrote and gave to his mother made Jon a Stark and not a bastard.

Stannis also said to Jon if he accepts he will not be a bastard. IIRC Jon decided to stay a bastard because he didn't want to betray his gods and "ghost fur was as white as snow" so he realizes he a Snow not a Stark. So he might want to become heir of winterfell and the King in The North.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I thought Jon, Rickon, and Arya had black hair? I have to check. But Jon Snow is older than Gendry isn't he? He would be the 1st bastard. And remember that he is really a Stark now. The letter that Rob Stark (King of the North) wrote and gave to his mother made Jon a Stark and not a bastard.

No, you mix at least 3 things:

1) Jon and Arya has brown hair and Rickon has auburn hair.

2) Mya Stone is Robert's first bastard.

3) Robb gave letter to Maege Mormont and to [one male high noble man whose name I couldn't remember]

[Roose Bolton's Onesie]

Has it been mentioned what happens within dragon dreams? The Starks can warg into the bodies of the direwolves, perhaps the dragon dreams suggest that the dreamer possibly has the innate ability to warg into or control dragons? Or maybe Tyrion's dreams are just brought about by his fascination with dragons... :dunno:

With regards to Ned actually being Jon's father, I'd be so surprised if that's true. His devotion to maintaining his honour seems utterly unwavering, and the idea of him dishonouring himself with Wylla seems too far-fetched. With Ashara maybe, but Wylla? I doubt it.

[Sidonie]

Has it been mentioned what happens within dragon dreams? The Starks can warg into the bodies of the direwolves, perhaps the dragon dreams suggest that the dreamer possibly has the innate ability to warg into or control dragons? Or maybe Tyrion's dreams are just brought about by his fascination with dragons... :dunno:

Well I believe Maester Aemon described his dreams as being stalked at the Wall by dragons..like he could see their shadows on the snow, even. And Dany dreamed of being scoured with fire by a dragon. This was before her 3 dragons were even born, and she had just married Drogo. The Targs dream of dragons even when they don't exist, but it seems the Starks dream just about their own particular direwolf.

[A Redeemed Hound]

No, you mix at least 3 things:

1) Jon and Arya has brown hair and Rickon has auburn hair.

2) Mya Stone is Robert's first bastard.

3) Robb gave letter to Maege Mormont and to [one male high noble man whose name I couldn't remember]

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated. I think we all agree that Ned is not Jon's father and Lyanna is the mother. I agree Rhaegar is the most obvious candidate for father but Jon has zero Targ traits. He is 100% Stark...gross. I just thought of something. Could Jon's parents be Ned and Lyanna? It all boils down to WE NEED THE NEXT BOOK!!!!

[Solitae]

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated. I think we all agree that Ned is not Jon's father and Lyanna is the mother. I agree Rhaegar is the most obvious candidate for father but Jon has zero Targ traits. He is 100% Stark...gross. I just thought of something. Could Jon's parents be Ned and Lyanna? It all boils down to WE NEED THE NEXT BOOK!!!!

Please, no, not Ned and Lyanna!

But yeah, I think the real question becomes who is Jon's father?

Since Jorah's comment to Dany about being her Rhaegar's sister because she stopped the rapes originally sent me down this rabbit hole (R+L=J), I've been considering it a bit more lately...that, and Rhaegar's motivation to 'kidnap' Lyanna.

Given that we know Rhaegar as an honorable sort (even in the mind of Ned Stark), I suspect that Rhaegar may have rescued Lyanna from someone raping/attempting to rape her. This gives something more than personal reasons for him to steal her away as he did, especially if he did care for her. Surely he could not simply stand aside while someone abused her.

Now, obviously, we know something was going on with Rhaegar and Lyanna at the Harrenhal tourney, and perhaps he did want a second wife to bear him more children to fulfill prophecy. We also know that Aerys was at that tourney.

I could easily see Aerys finding this romance with his son threatening. Perhaps he took Lyanna to teach Rhaegar a lesson, or perhaps he just wanted her. I have no problem at all accepting that Aerys could find a reason to rape Lyanna, even a 'good' reason in his mind, especially if Rhaegar claimed her as a wife.

Thus with his wife/lover/friend in danger, Rhaegar swept her out of harm's way and down to the TOJ with orders to the Kingsguard to let no one but himself have access to her since he knew Aerys could use anyone, including Lyanna's family, to get to her.

An addition to all this is that the Mormonts know more about Rhaegar (and Lyanna). Perhaps Jorah will go to the Wall, and we'll get the big reveal from him rather than the Reeds (who are the most obvious choice.)

I know I'm assuming a lot here, but just playing around with ways it could possibly work.

Ugh, if Aerys was Jon's father, then the idea that Tyrion is also his son fits rather well and gives us three possible heads of the dragon that are children of Aerys...this displeases me. I want Tyrion to actually be Tywin's son!

Maybe Jon is a child of Lyanna and some wildling! Or I could even entertain the idea of Robert having fathered Jon, but I don't think even Ned could have stayed loyal if he knew Robert forced Lyanna.