The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[Manakhkubar]

People want so badly for L+R = J that they are making stuff up. Jon is not Targaryian. It's too clean and simple and way too obvious. He does not have dragon dreams. ONLY TARGARYIANS have dragon dreams. Dreams are so important in these books.

I don't want Jon to be a Targ. Still, you are missing the point. First, there is no evidence that "only Targs have dragon dreams". Second, even if that so far unproven hypothesis would be correct, it is not equivalent to "all Targs have dragon dreams". It would simply mean that Tyrion must be a Targ (assuming he didn't lie in his PoV about the dragon dreams). Finally, maybe Jon had dragon dreams when he was a little child. That's rather far fetched (as Jon never recalls that when he has the chance (in Tyrion's PoV where he tells Jon about his own dragon dreams; or with Maester Aemon), but not completely impossible.

Conclusion:

* We don't know if Jon had dragon dreams

* We don't know if only Targs have dragon dreams

* We don't know if all Targs have dragon dreams

=> We know nothing, Jon Snow

Jon is not the son of Rhaegar no matter what. Jon is going to meet Dany and they are going to get married. GRRM makes it obvious from the beginning that incest is bad and the bad people are doing it (I like Jaime too but he's a bad dude. Suddenly finding honor does not make up for all the things he did with his sister and trying to kill Bran). He's not going to make Jon blood related to Dany and continue the incest lines.

First sentence is almost completely true. Jon is Ned's son. No matter who fathered him. As for the rest: Maybe Jon+Dany happily ever after is NOT what SoIaF is all about. I know this is wild speculation.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

And I can think of at least one (admittedly minor) precedent off the top of my head - In ACoK when Tyrion commissions the wildfire and the chain we are not explicitly told why he wants it, he never specifically thinks to himself "I want to light the river on fire and trap all the boats" and for me this was a suitably dramatic and surprising moment because the information was withheld.

True enough. But in that situation, GRRM isn't actively withholding relevant information about who Tyrion is and what he's thinking about. We know that he's building a chain, we know that he's worried about finishing it, we know that he's anxious that Stannis not leave Storm's End before it's done. And similarly, if we heard that Jon was having disturbing dreams, that he was afraid to go to sleep because of it, or that he was angry in the morning because he was sleep-deprived, then I wouldn't have the objection to Edward the Great's idea that I do.

The equivalent to what Edward the Great is suggesting would be if Tyrion never thought about the chain, we never saw him with the smiths, we never heard him think about any kind of project that he needed to see done before Stannis arrived, but then all of a sudden at the Battle of the Blackwater we learn that he's been building a chain this entire time and has been worried sick about seeing it done. That would feel like a tremendous cheat, and like we hadn't really been privy to Tyrion's thoughts after all.

[HawkZ]

Conclusion:

* We don't know if Jon had dragon dreams

* We don't know if only Targs have dragon dreams

* We don't know if all Targs have dragon dreams

=> We know nothing, Jon Snow

Word. :agree:

but then all of a sudden at the Battle of the Blackwater we learn that he's been building a chain this entire time and has been worried sick about seeing it done. That would feel like a tremendous cheat, and like we hadn't really been privy to Tyrion's thoughts after all.

I agree with you that if Jon is reveled to be Rheagar and Lyanna's son and his first reaction is along the lines "Hey! This explains all those off-screen dragon-dreams I've been having!" that would be incredibly silly and would absolutely feel like a cheat.

And if dragon dreams were something that Jon himself considered important/are something he gave active thought to/were disturbing to him I agree that GRRM should at least indicate their presence. But I'm sure Jon, like all of us, has had dramatic-yet-unimportant dreams that he's forgotten the instant he woke up... I don't think that GRRM has any obligation to show us dreams/thoughts/anything that the character would not have considered important, especially if it isn't relevant to the immediate plot.

Again, if Jon woke up in book 6 thrashing and screaming because of the dragon dreams that had been haunting him his whole life that would be a big narrative mess, but I think that goes beyond what Edward the Great was suggesting.

What I personally suspect could be quite relevant about Jon's lack of general Targaryen traits is that his arc (if R+L=J turns out to be true) may be less about him discovering his inner Targaryen "prince," then it is about how Lyanna's Stark-y "iceness" and Rheagar's Targ "fire" are symbolically necessary ingredients for Jon to fight the Others as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch... And perhaps to provide him with a temptation to leave said post. But of course, that is 100% speculation on my end.

[A Redeemed Hound]

I don't want Jon to be a Targ. Still, you are missing the point. First, there is no evidence that "only Targs have dragon dreams". Second, even if that so far unproven hypothesis would be correct, it is not equivalent to "all Targs have dragon dreams". It would simply mean that Tyrion must be a Targ (assuming he didn't lie in his PoV about the dragon dreams). Finally, maybe Jon had dragon dreams when he was a little child. That's rather far fetched (as Jon never recalls that when he has the chance (in Tyrion's PoV where he tells Jon about his own dragon dreams; or with Maester Aemon), but not completely impossible.

Conclusion:

* We don't know if Jon had dragon dreams

* We don't know if only Targs have dragon dreams

* We don't know if all Targs have dragon dreams

=> We know nothing, Jon Snow

* We do know Jon has not had dragon dreams. Why? Because they are books. If it is not in there then it did not happen. Imagine how goofy it would be if Jon's POV chapters suddenly talk about his haunting dragon dreams? He's a warg and a Stark. Not a Targaryen.

* Yes, only Targs have dragon dreams. How? Because only the Targs have had dragon dreams in the books. It is known. If we get a chapter showing Sansa dreaming of a dragon or Jaime dreaming of dragons, then I will eat my words. Ain't going to happen though.

* This point might be true but if that is the case it would be pretty dumb and not a good story. Dreams mean too much in these books for that to be the case.

:> It is known.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Tyrion dream about dragons because he was small, weak, ugly and unloved. An Imp. That is understable and obvious.

[HawkZ]

* We do know Jon has not had dragon dreams. Why? Because they are books. If it is not in there then it did not happen. Imagine how goofy it would be if Jon's POV chapters suddenly talk about his haunting dragon dreams? He's a warg and a Stark. Not a Targaryen.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance I do agree with Peter Dyckman-Campbell's general point that dragon dreams are not significant to Jon's character, but we are not privy to every single one of Jon's dreams.

* Yes, only Targs have dragon dreams. How? Because only the Targs have had dragon dreams in the books. It is known. If we get a chapter showing Sansa dreaming of a dragon or Jaime dreaming of dragons, then I will eat my words. Ain't going to happen though.

Tyrion has had dragon dreams. I know you consider this proof that he is a Targ, but that is very circular logic - "We only see Targs having dragon dreams in the books, therefore when we see a character who is not a Targ having dragon dreams he must be a Targ."

Dreams are significant in the series, Ned and Dany have had some pretty interesting ones regarding Lyanna's death and Rheagar's fixation on "the three headed dragon" respectively :P

[Manakhkubar]

* We do know Jon has not had dragon dreams. Why? Because they are books. If it is not in there then it did not happen. Imagine how goofy it would be if Jon's POV chapters suddenly talk about his haunting dragon dreams? He's a warg and a Stark. Not a Targaryen.

* Yes, only Targs have dragon dreams. How? Because only the Targs have had dragon dreams in the books. It is known. If we get a chapter showing Sansa dreaming of a dragon or Jaime dreaming of dragons, then I will eat my words. Ain't going to happen though.

* This point might be true but if that is the case it would be pretty dumb and not a good story. Dreams mean too much in these books for that to be the case.

:> It is known.

(1) That is nonsense. We assume that all the people, eat, drink, piss, shit and sleep every day, although that is very seldomly directly addressed in the books. Characters travel and we are never told how they travel each single mile, they seem to skip through the landscape, judged by the parts that are actually written. We, the readers, have to fill all these "holes" with what we assume. Of course, most of these examples are "trivial". We can assume that all people dream, though that is seldom written in the book. We can assume that many people remember their last nights dream in the morning, still most of those dreams are not in the book.

Therefore: It's a fact that hundreds of millions of dreams happened in or before the story that are not described in the book. A tiny little dragon dream by Jon could easily hide among all of those.

(2) You are teasing me, aren't you?! You are really implying that _every_ single dream of a person in Westeros and the Free Cities and what not has to be described in the book?? Or does this dogma only covers dragon dreams??? However, your theory is easily falsified by the fact that Tyrion "had" a dragon dream, the only way to save your theory is to come up with a completely bogus ad-hoc explanation. And ad-hoc explanations (like: Tyrion lied, because my theory is right. or: Tyrion must be a Targ, because my theory is right) are a strong indication that a theory is wrong.

(3) It would be dumb?! Dreams mean to much?! Well, could be that Martin tells us precisely those dreams that mean anything and skips all the others. It's not that those few dreams are all the same type. There are warg dreams, shadow baby dreams, day dreams, simple "bad conscience" dreams and so on.

[A Redeemed Hound]

(1) That is nonsense. We assume that all the people, eat, drink, piss, shit and sleep every day, although that is very seldomly directly addressed in the books. Characters travel and we are never told how they travel each single mile, they seem to skip through the landscape, judged by . We can assume that many people remember their last nights dream in the morning, still most of those dreams are not in the book.

(2) You are teasing me, aren't you?! You are really implying that _every_ single dream of a person in Westeros and the Free Cities and what not has to be described in the book?? Or does this dogma only covers dragon dreams??? However, your theory is easily falsified by the fact that Tyrion "hadmy theory is right) are a strong indication that a theory is wrong.

(3) It would be dumb?! Dreams mean to much?! Well, could be that Martin tells us precisely those and so on.

Okay. So going by your "logic" how do we know Tyrion doesn't have a direwolf of his own back at Casterly Rock? It was never mentioned but he could have one. Just because it is not in the book doesn't mean it isn't true, right? I mean, it would make sense for an author to not drop any clues or hints in his book and just pull stuff out of the air when the time comes to fix a plot hole. I bet Hodor has dragon dreams and is in fact a man-wolf-dragon. Why not? It does not say anywhere he is NOT a man-wolf-dragon. Or maybe the Reed brother/sisters also have their own direwolves. Maybe they breed them and sell them at cost to people of the north? Maybe Jon's wolf has dragon dreams?

Tyrion has been fascinated with dragons his entire life. He dreams of them. He has sex with his woman in front of their skulls. He studies them through ancient books. His father said "You are no son of mine" before Tyrion killed him. I like to go by the actual clues of the books rather than what is not in the books. Look at clues. You would make a terrible investigator.

Also, so we don't hear about Jon taking a crap means that GRRM would not write about him having a very important dream regarding dragons? Crap and Dragon dreams are equal? Please. Stop it.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

But I'm sure Jon, like all of us, has had dramatic-yet-unimportant dreams that he's forgotten the instant he woke up... I don't think that GRRM has any obligation to show us dreams/thoughts/anything that the character would not have considered important, especially if it isn't relevant to the immediate plot.

That's true enough, I suppose. But if we're talking about a dream that is so trivial that the character forgets about it, then we're talking about something that will never be verifiable in the text and never affect the plot. It's not really even a theory at that point; it's fan fiction.

[HawkZ]

That's true enough, I suppose. But if we're talking about a dream that is so trivial that the character forgets about it, then we're talking about something that will never be verifiable in the text and never affect the plot. It's not really even a theory at that point; it's fan fiction.

I completely agree, Jon has Warg-ing dreams of Ghost and those are almost certainly the dreams that are significant to his character. The only reason to bring up the possibility of offscreen dreams imo is just to highlight the idea that just because we haven't seen Jon dream of dragons, doesn't mean that he's not a Targaryen... Though I think the more important point is that Dragons are huge winged fire-breathing flying machines of death, and it's really a leap for me to think that only Targs have ever had dreams about these living monsters.

Woodbyrne,

Tyrion has been fascinated with dragons his entire life. He dreams of them. He has sex with his woman in front of their skulls. He studies them through ancient books. His father said "You are no son of mine" before Tyrion killed him. I like to go by the actual clues of the books rather than what is not in the books. Look at clues.

I think there is a line of evidence to suggest that could be a Targ, one which I'm actually relatively sympathetic to... But that in no way is hard proof that only Targaryens dream of dragons.

We have characters who are Targs who have dragon dreams.

We have a character who is (as of right now) canonically a Lannister who has dreamed about dragons.

If the only way to demonstrate that Targs are the only ones who have dragon dreams is because Tyrion is a Targ, and the only way to prove that Tyrion is a Targ is because he had dragon dreams which only Targs have, that's a fallacious argument -- You must see that?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Tyrion has been fascinated with dragons his entire life. He dreams of them. He has sex with his woman in front of their skulls. He studies them through ancient books.

Oh, so everybody who is fascinated by dragons is a Targaryen? All those people who flooded Daenerys in Qarth to see the dragons, they're all Targaryens? The woman who gave her husband's corpse for the privilege of seeing dragons was a Targaryen? [Tyrion read a book or two, but that woman has demonstrated a real obsession, surely she must be a tenth-level Valyrian dragon-lord with a +3 bonus to fucking her own brother.] Quhuru Mo? Xhondo? All the sailors who delight in telling the stories about dragons over and over again? I'm beginning to think that perhaps half of Essos is made up of Targaryens.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Oh, so everybody who is fascinated by dragons is a Targaryen? All those people who flooded Daenerys in Qarth to see the dragons, they're all Targaryens? The woman who gave her husband's corpse for the privilege of seeing dragons was a Targaryen? [Tyrion read a book or two, but that woman has demonstrated a real obsession, surely she must be a tenth-level Valyrian dragon-lord with a +3 bonus to fucking her own brother.] Quhuru Mo? Xhondo? All the sailors who delight in telling the stories about dragons over and over again? I'm beginning to think that perhaps half of Essos is made up of Targaryens.

I was told by several people not to write on these forums because most of the people on them are....so I am done here. We can talk about the main characters of the books and the actual clues that have been placed by GRRM or we can be amazingly stupid and make stuff up and assume everything just to be disagreeable. But as far as the facts and clues are concerned, Jon Snow is not Targaryen. Tyrion is part Targaryen and one of the heads of the dragon. Shit, he was told so in the Tyrion chapter from ADWD. Blind Maester Aemon "saw" him as a giant among men when he visited the Wall. His fascination and dreams did not happen from hearing about or seeing Dany's dragons. He's now overseas with the same man who hid Dany and her brother. The same man who, along with the Master of Whispers, wants the Targaryens to return to power. Sorry I am looking at the actual books and the actual clues placed in the actual POV chapters. I am not going to assume and make stuff up based on absolutely nothing. Maybe you are right and Jon has been having dragon dreams his whole life but the author of the books felt they were not important for some amazingly odd reason. We shall see as long as GRRM does not croak before all the books are written. Until then, have fun making up some really stupid crap. Peace.

[Lord Jon Elurra]

I was told by several people not to write on these forums because most of the people on them are....

Way to go with a big BANG!

Bye, not a pleasure to read you... :bang:

[Jon Westerland]

Okay. So going by your "logic" how do we know Tyrion doesn't have a direwolf of his own back at Casterly Rock? It was never mentioned but he could have one. Just because it is not in the book doesn't mean it isn't true, right? I mean, it would make sense for an author to not drop any clues or hints in his book and just pull stuff out of the air when the time comes to fix a plot hole. I bet Hodor has dragon dreams and is in fact a man-wolf-dragon. Why not? It does not say anywhere he is NOT a man-wolf-dragon. Or maybe the Reed brother/sisters also have their own direwolves. Maybe they breed them and sell them at cost to people of the north? Maybe Jon's wolf has dragon dreams?

Now that we think of it, did Viserys ever dream of dragons? The book doesn't mention it!

Therefore Viserys never had dragon dreams and therefore isn't a targ! Ha! Whaddaya know!

Dragon dreams are not evidence of targ lineage nor is lack of dream evidence non-targ lineage. Whilest this theory is a theory that appeals to the inner romantic in us all and fits some evidence, keep in mind that it may not be a theory you want to be true.

Example, it would change Eddards character, by making him flawless. It makes him into a sort of superman who always did what was right. Whilest that may not be a bad thing it really demolishes part of his character:

The fact he is human.

It turns Jon Snow into a standard off the shelf "I don't know I am heir to the kingdom," stock character. It turns everyone into stereotypes.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Example, it would change Eddards character, by making him flawless. It makes him into a sort of superman who always did what was right. Whilest that may not be a bad thing it really demolishes part of his character:

The fact he is human.

Really? I don't know of very many R+L=J supporters who think that Ned "always did what was right." I for one think he made a number of mistakes over the course of A Game of Thrones, and thus is very much human.

------

Tyrion is part Targaryen and one of the heads of the dragon. Shit, he was told so in the Tyrion chapter from ADWD.

That second sentence would be a ADWD spoiler, except that it's untrue.

In fact, Tyrion overhears Illyrio say that there are three heads to the dragon. Tyrion being one of them is a popular fan speculation, but Illyrio never said it. At the time, he's to be talking about the Golden Company, not Tyrion.

Blind Maester Aemon "saw" him as a giant among men when he visited the Wall.

Maester Aemon identified him as an important character, but not as a Targaryen.

His fascination and dreams did not happen from hearing about or seeing Dany's dragons.

True enough. They came from books and childhood imagination. But either way, it's clear that in the world of ASOIAF, a fascination with dragons is natural and human and really kind of mundane, not some sign of a hidden lineage.

He's now overseas with the same man who hid Dany and her brother. The same man who, along with the Master of Whispers, wants the Targaryens to return to power.

Indeed. Both Ser Barristan and Strong Belwas were affiliated with Illyrio.

We also learn in the Tyrion spoiler chapters that Illyrio maintains a sellsword company run by a Westerosi knight that has long been in his service, believed to be the former Hand Jon Connington.

Ser Jorah spent a sustained length of time working with Varys. Clearly these folks are not all Targaryens, simply by virtue of their affiliation with Illyrio and Varys.

Maybe you are right and Jon has been having dragon dreams his whole life but the author of the books felt they were not important for some amazingly odd reason.

I in fact was arguing for the exact opposite.

[HawkZ]

I apologize in advance for beating a dead horse here... Buut since I apparently can't help myself, Shireen has dreamed of dragons, and possibly so has Bran..

[Medieval Housefly]

Quote:

He's not going to make Jon blood related to Dany and continue the incest lines.

I'm reading the second book right now and it is said that incest is seen as an abomination, but it also says the Targs were the only ones who did it. Here is the quote.

"The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neighter gods nor men"-A Clash of Kings.

Another point. If he is the product of Targ/Stark he may have more Stark in him, and be more wolf than dragon and not have the dragon dreams. It is A Song of Ice and Fire, he seems to have a lot more ice than fire in him if it is true.

Another thing I noticed is that when Ned would have his POV he never thought of him as his son, he thought of him as the boy. If I were his father I would not refer to him as such.

[krakenfisher]

Jon not having dragon dreams is a point against R+L=J, but hardly a dealbreaker -- GRRM could give many reasons related to his character, bloodlines, and upbringing which explained why not. In fact it probably wouldn't need to be more than "Targaryens are often obsessed with dragons because of their family history, but not always, and many non-Targaryens are fascinated by them too". A quote I just stumbled across, Alester to Davos in ASoS:

"This talk of a stone dragon...madness, I tell you, sheer madness. Did we learn nothing from Aerion Brightfire, from the nine mages, from the alchemists? Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons, I told Axell as much."

Presumably the nine mages and the alchemists didn't have Targaryen blood. Nor Melisandre, for that matter.

[KingSnow]

If R+L=J is true, maybe Jon's nonobsession with dragons will be a good thing. How many Tags went mad/died (or someothet bad thing) because they tried to bring dragons back. Aerys, with his pyrophilia, seemed to have gone mad with 'dragon fever'. Maybe (I'm just speculating here, please don't kill me) the fact that Jon is not obsessed with dragons/fire means that he might redeem, or something, the Targ name, get the dragon lovin out. (remember, this is just speculation)

[Medieval Housefly]

Even if Jon isn't their child I would be interested to learn more about L + R's relationship. How consensual it was, R's married life, L's affection for Robert (or lack thereof).