The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[Nine of Spades]

mmm.. this is the kind of thing i define as "unrealistic". If Meera would have said his fared has a ward, it would be different. But know, there is no basis for the appareance of a mysterious boy who has been raised by reed.

(Ned & Howland were close friends, this is why they wrote to each other)

No way a 2nd child is kept in the seven kingdoms. I dont buy the raised by Reed thing, too many people could see, too many people could talk.

IMHO... no, because they only hint of a R+L=? character we have is related to Jon. (Ned does often think about Rhaehar7Lyanna and Jon in the same time), and there are no hints Ashara is still alive.

Jon already has a sword, and he earned it, not inherited. So, even if Jon is Ashara's son, either Ned or Darkstar will have the sword.

Darkstar was introduced concurrently with ADwD in terms of time line. So your saying the sword of the morning is going to be some new guy that didn't show up to the 4th book, but don't think the 2nd or 3rd head of the Dragon cant show up at the same time?

And Jon's sword was another man's sword before. Ned's sword got melted down and became 2 swords. Valyrian steel is rare, but there are a good number blades of that nature, and they change over time. But Dawn? It is one sword that is unlike any other.

Again, i think there is no hint of a R+L son who is not jon.

And i (a conspiracy theory fan) do believe ashara is dead.

that would me martin-like but.. why should have ned switched the babies? If lyanna made him promise to look after her child, it would have been more sensible ned raising R+L and sending his (and ashara's) own child away. I could believe that (but i don't because IMHO ashara is dead :D)

No hint post storm of swords. Since ADwD and AFfC are occurring simultaneously, lets not assume that holds true for the 4th/5th books.

As for protecting the child, the safest thing to do would be to get it as far away from the seven kingdoms as possible. What happens if the child bears a strong resemblance to Rhaegar and people notice? Its not like you can hide the kid at that point. Whereas even if someone were to go halfway across the world and notice, it would still be hard for Robert to do anything about it. So moving the king's child overseas is both a better way to protect the child from discovery, or foul play if discovery is made.

And it rather neatly explains why Ned was so reluctant to talk about Jon's mother, as well as what would make him obsess about Lyanna's promise. Imagine promising your dear sister to protect her child, then having to treat your own son poorly to do so? What kind of father wouldnt be crushed with remorse and regret.

If martin planned R+L=J, is a thing too important to be changed.

Also, i think (hope) martin doesn't know how much we are theorizing on this (whishful thinking)

and i hope he doesn't change everything for this. please.

He planned a 5 year gap to, and spent years trying to hammer out how to fix it when he realized it wouldnt work. If your willing to fundamentally restructure the basic timeline of your novels, everything seems fair game to me.

Martin is awesome using fantasy cliche in a brand new way.

GRRM is subtle. Even if R+L=J it is not obvious. Also, there is an huge difference between martin's lost prince and -for example- david edding's belgarion. the latter is a clichè, the former would be innovative. How many lost princes are really, really pissed off finding out who they really are? If R+L=J, i expect Jon being really upset - all he has ever wanted was to be recognized as ned's true son, despite being a bastard. Finding out he is not ned's at all will be shocking to him, and not in a good way. My two cents.

Missing children of important nobles is not subtle in fantasy. Pretty much every author gets found out when they try it now.

[Whatever]

No way a 2nd child is kept in the seven kingdoms. I dont buy the raised by Reed thing, too many people could see, too many people could talk.

yes, we agree here

Darkstar was introduced concurrently with ADwD in terms of time line. So your saying the sword of the morning is going to be some new guy that didn't show up to the 4th book, but don't think the 2nd or 3rd head of the Dragon cant show up at the same time?

I don't think the sword of the moring is a big deal. The dragon's heads are, and Azor Azhai, and i'm pretty sure they have been already introduced.

I don't get your point.. as far as we know, the sword of the moring is not important, and i'm not worried about this.

And Jon's sword was another man's sword before. Ned's sword got melted down and became 2 swords. Valyrian steel is rare, but there are a good number blades of that nature, and they change over time. But Dawn? It is one sword that is unlike any other.

My point here is - he earned that sword. Dawn was Arthur's before and i don't see any reason why jon should get it. Even if he is a Dayne, he has not been raised as one, and there are other daynes with a stronger claim to that sword than jon's.

BTW, he is not a dayne, as he is not a targ. Jon is a northmen, period.

I actually don't think he can be considered a real stark.

No hint post storm of swords. Since ADwD and AFfC are occurring simultaneously, lets not assume that holds true for the 4th/5th books.

I think we already know all of the hints that were supposed to be hinted. I mean, we should get a solution now, not more hints :D

As for protecting the child, the safest thing to do would be to get it as far away from the seven kingdoms as possible. What happens if the child bears a strong resemblance to Rhaegar and people notice? Its not like you can hide the kid at that point. Whereas even if someone were to go halfway across the world and notice, it would still be hard for Robert to do anything about it. So moving the king's child overseas is both a better way to protect the child from discovery, or foul play if discovery is made.

And it rather neatly explains why Ned was so reluctant to talk about Jon's mother, as well as what would make him obsess about Lyanna's promise. Imagine promising your dear sister to protect her child, then having to treat your own son poorly to do so? What kind of father wouldnt be crushed with remorse and regret.

He could have just said she was ashara and she killed herself and "please jon, don't make me think about her now". All jon has ever asked was a name and assurace his mother was not a whore. Even if jon wanted to go to dorne, no problem. Ned dayne thinks ashara killed herself, and it's likely the rest of her family thinks the same.

He planned a 5 year gap to, and spent years trying to hammer out how to fix it when he realized it wouldnt work. If your willing to fundamentally restructure the basic timeline of your novels, everything seems fair game to me.

If he planned Jon to be R+L and then he changed his mind, he should have found a new head of the dragon, a new storyline for jon and a massive change of almost everything. I think GRRM's basic point will never change, nevermind all of timeline restructures.

Missing children of important nobles is not subtle in fantasy. Pretty much every author gets found out when they try it now.

Of course. But here

1) there are relatively few hints of a missing child.. we aren't even sure there is a missing child

2) the missing child's (jon's) reaction will be completely different.

[Calidor]

I still say the direwolf is the ultimate hint about Jon's parentage. Ghost is a Targaryen colored direwolf.

[Nine of Spades]

yes, we agree here

I don't think the sword of the moring is a big deal. The dragon's heads are, and Azor Azhai, and i'm pretty sure they have been already introduced.

I don't get your point.. as far as we know, the sword of the moring is not important, and i'm not worried about this.

Or the sword of the morning crucially important, and it means everything. Im just not going to dismiss a singularly unique weapon with a name that heavily for shadows a coming conflict and that dates back to the last instance of that conflict as being trivial.

He could have just said she was ashara and she killed herself and "please jon, don't make me think about her now". All jon has ever asked was a name and assurace his mother was not a whore. Even if jon wanted to go to dorne, no problem. Ned dayne thinks ashara killed herself, and it's likely the rest of her family thinks the same.

That raises the question of why a woman who just gave birth commits suicide and leaves the baby behind. Doesnt strike me as typical. The less said about the mother though, the better. Not knowing who, it because pretty fruitless to turn over every village and town to try to find the woman. But if you know its Ashara, maybe you dig around a little, and you start finding out some things you dont want people to know.

If he planned Jon to be R+L and then he changed his mind, he should have found a new head of the dragon, a new storyline for jon and a massive change of almost everything. I think GRRM's basic point will never change, nevermind all of timeline restructures.

GRRM I think has some ideas of where he wants things to go, but I think he also is willing to go where his story leads him, as opposed trying to keep it going in a straight line from point A to point B. I think he would change anything about his plan that he started with if he thought it makes for a better story.

[mummer]

That raises the question of why a woman who just gave birth commits suicide and leaves the baby behind. Doesnt strike me as typical.

But not unheard of, unfortunately. May have nothing to do with the story, but it's worth knowing.

[Nine of Spades]

But not unheard of, unfortunately. May have nothing to do with the story, but it's worth knowing.

You hear more about infanticide or infanticide+suicide... usually not suicide but leaving the baby for others to raise. I mean, we are getting pretty far off the path here and ill withdraw my point to a certain extent, and just say that I think that admitting that Jon was Ashara's son would cause people to doubt the suicide. And it does saddle John with the whole, yeah your mom just offed herself when you were born angst, which I cant say is a whole lot better then telling him nothing.

[Whatever]

Or the sword of the morning crucially important, and it means everything. Im just not going to dismiss a singularly unique weapon with a name that heavily for shadows a coming conflict and that dates back to the last instance of that conflict as being trivial.

Ok, but right now we don't know so much about the sword of the morning, and as far as we know, it's not related to jon at all.

[Nine of Spades]

Ok, but right now we don't know so much about the sword of the morning, and as far as we know, it's not related to jon at all.

Its been mentioned more then a few times. We don't know its significance to the plot, but we know what it looks like, that it is of unique origin, that it is a blade of unsurpassed strength, that it is ancient beyond knowing and that it has, as far as anyone knows, only been wielded by Danes. Which is in and of itself an odd fact, you'd think a sword of such quality would have caused others to be tempted to wield it, but it always makes its way back to 1 particular house. For a sword, we know a heck of a lot about it actually.

So we know quite a bit about it, except what its significance to the story is, and who will be the next to wield it. It may not be Jon at all, it may be some other person, it may not be a Dane... but there are some narrative issues with those possibilities as well if R+L=J, which I don't necessarily think are any easier to work out. I think GRRM has a number of very narrow bridges to cross, with a fiery death on one side and an icy one on the other, and it will be fun to see how he does it.

[Whatever]

I think GRRM has a number of very narrow bridges to cross, with a fiery death on one side and an icy one on the other, and it will be fun to see how he does it.

:D

[CornBaller]

plus, if we expect every little word to have a deeper meaning we are gonna be sorely disappointed. He can write allusions to objects or people with the sole intent to add depth and realism to a situation.

[corbon]

snip

GRRM I think has some ideas of where he wants things to go, but I think he also is willing to go where his story leads him, as opposed trying to keep it going in a straight line from point A to point B. I think he would change anything about his plan that he started with if he thought it makes for a better story.

A story proceeds from the past, to the future. Even if we don't know the past, GRRM must, to understand and write his characters (both past and present) with realistic motivations.

So although he may be happy to go "where the story leads", that must surely refer to the future, not the past revealed.

I think GRRM's 'backstory' is relatively fixed and not subject to change. What is changeable, and can go in a variety of directions (where the story leads, rather than where the author drives), is how the 'current' part of the story unfolds.

[Nine of Spades]

A story proceeds from the past, to the future. Even if we don't know the past, GRRM must, to understand and write his characters (both past and present) with realistic motivations.

So although he may be happy to go "where the story leads", that must surely refer to the future, not the past revealed.

I think GRRM's 'backstory' is relatively fixed and not subject to change. What is changeable, and can go in a variety of directions (where the story leads, rather than where the author drives), is how the 'current' part of the story unfolds.

The past in a story is the part you've told. The future is the part you haven't told. The only thing that GRRM is commited to is the stuff hes written down already and published.