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Lady Blackfish

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

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Well I believe Maester Aemon described his dreams as being stalked at the Wall by dragons..like he could see their shadows on the snow, even. And Dany dreamed of being scoured with fire by a dragon. This was before her 3 dragons were even born, and she had just married Drogo. The Targs dream of dragons even when they don't exist, but it seems the Starks dream just about their own particular direwolf.

Didn't Maester Aemon says that he stoped dreaming about Dragons when he was on the wall (and start dreaming again on the travel to the citadel) Maybe Jon don't have this dreams because he is to close to the wall.

And Dany only have them when she marry to Drogo, so Jon could start dreaming in the future (if he leaves the wall).

Please, no, not Ned and Lyanna!

But yeah, I think the real question becomes who is Jon's father?

Maybe Darth Vader?

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Yeah, I would imagine that in the north dragons would seem pretty darn far from the imagination.

We also don't know that Targs dream of dragons for genetic reasons, it could just be a psychological response to the fact their house had dragons.

As a lot of ppl have pointed out relative to the "Tyrion is a Targ theory", a whole lotta people in this wold have dreamed and fantasized about dragons... Again, they are dragons.

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Yeah, I would imagine that in the north dragons would seem pretty darn far from the imagination.

We also don't know that Targs dream of dragons for genetic reasons, it could just be a psychological response to the fact their house had dragons.

As a lot of ppl have pointed out relative to the "Tyrion is a Targ theory", a whole lotta people in this wold have dreamed and fantasized about dragons... Again, they are dragons.

Actually only Targaryens dream of dragons. Maester Aemon said so in AFFC. They do it from early on in their life. Tyrion has been dreaming and obsessed with dragons since childhood. So has Dany and Aemon. No other character dreams of dragons. Dreams mean too much in these books. Jon Snow has no Targaryen in him. He resembles Lyanna too much to not be her son. Remember that it was mentioned that Arya is starting to look and act more like her Aunt (who was considered the wild wolf) in the books. And it is mentioned that Jon and Arya look alike the most out of all the kids. It is the father who is a mystery. I still think the lead candidate is King Robert but it could be some person who has not been introduced yet.

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Yeah, but Jon's a warg. What if his warging wolf dreams OVERRIDE the Targ dragon dreams? It seems like the connection a warg has to his beast would be much stronger that dreams about anonymous dragons.

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Actually only Targaryens dream of dragons. Maester Aemon said so in AFFC. They do it from early on in their life. Tyrion has been dreaming and obsessed with dragons since childhood. So has Dany and Aemon. No other character dreams of dragons. Dreams mean too much in these books. Jon Snow has no Targaryen in him. He resembles Lyanna too much to not be her son. Remember that it was mentioned that Arya is starting to look and act more like her Aunt (who was considered the wild wolf) in the books. And it is mentioned that Jon and Arya look alike the most out of all the kids. It is the father who is a mystery. I still think the lead candidate is King Robert but it could be some person who has not been introduced yet.

Could you cite the Aemon quote from FfC? Because I had a dragon dream when I was a child and like to know if there is need to talk to the two people I thought to be my parents until 5 minutes ago. (I don't think I have violet eyes, but on the other hand I am colour blind ...)

However, even if only Targs dream of dragons, that does not necessarily imply that all Targs dream of dragons. And even if all Targs dream of dragons, I don't recall an explicit statement that Jon never ever dreamed of dragons.

Meaning that: Jon is very much a Stark by family values, virtues and other features, but that doesn't release him from the threat of being a potential Targ offspring.

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We don´t know, yet, if Jon has dreams of dragons, when Tyrion asked him about dragons he asked him about dreaming of dragons and killing his father Tywin or his sister to which Jon answered no, but we don´t know if he answered no to having dreams of dragons, about killing his family or both.

I think that one of Dany´s dragons will recognize our beloved Jon... They know who has Targaryen blood.

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He resembles Lyanna too much to not be her son. Remember that it was mentioned that Arya is starting to look and act more like her Aunt (who was considered the wild wolf) in the books. And it is mentioned that Jon and Arya look alike the most out of all the kids. It is the father who is a mystery. I still think the lead candidate is King Robert but it could be some person who has not been introduced yet.

Well, I believe there are some people out there in the real world who thinks that Jon is Ned's son. And yes, they are read the books. All realised books.

I would tell to you, Woodbyrne, that both parents are mystery until we are said otherwise or read it in the Last Book. And we need to accept if Ned is really father to Jon if we got confirmation that this is the case.

I really believe that Lyanna is mother to Jon, but I understand that we got no confirmation to know for sure.

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Could you cite the Aemon quote from FfC? Because I had a dragon dream when I was a child and like to know if there is need to talk to the two people I thought to be my parents until 5 minutes ago. (I don't think I have violet eyes, but on the other hand I am colour blind ...)

However, even if only Targs dream of dragons, that does not necessarily imply that all Targs dream of dragons. And even if all Targs dream of dragons, I don't recall an explicit statement that Jon never ever dreamed of dragons.

Meaning that: Jon is very much a Stark by family values, virtues and other features, but that doesn't release him from the threat of being a potential Targ offspring.

Maybe somehow Jon's wolf dreams overrule his dragon dreams? (unlikely, yes) Or (more realistic) the dragon dreams could be more along the lines of nurture than nature. To answer for Tyrion, he reads a lot, most likely the books he's read had dragons in it. Then a fascination begins to creep in, and before you know it: dragon dreams!

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Actually only Targaryens dream of dragons. Maester Aemon said so in AFFC. They do it from early on in their life.

Maester Aemon said that he dreamed of dragons, as had all of his brothers. I don't recall him saying that only Targaryens dream of dragons, and I suspect that you're misremembering the quote.

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I think that one of Dany´s dragons will recognize our beloved Jon... They know who has Targaryen blood.

Good point, doesn't one of Dany's dragons take a liking to Brown Ben Plumm?

Also, during Aemon's last days, doesn't he say how he wishes he could be with Dany and that the prophecy has been misinterpreted? When in actuality he may have been unknowingly aiding the real PTWP in Jon Snow all along. :wacko:

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In regards to Jon's appearance, I believe the Targaryen genes are recessive. I think they only show so strongly in most Targaryens due to the incest. But when mixed with other genes, as we see in the descriptions of Aegon, Rhaenys, and Rhaego, they tend to take somewhat of a backseat. I think the Stark genes merely dominate the Targaryen ones, resulting in Jon looking a lot like Ned, and his mother Lyanna. But I agree that if R+L=J, he will never have dragon dreams "on screen". That really would be too much of a giveaway. GRRM has walked a very delicate balance in writing this plot line, and I doubt he'd clue us in with something as obvious as that.

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Just because we haven't been told that Jon dreams of dragons doesn't mean that he doesn't.

And I don't think it's just Targs - it's most likely any of the Valyrian nobility. The Targs are not the only branch left of that family. Even if there is a connection between genetics and dragon dreams/dragon control it still isn't all that rare. Dragon dreams and warging ability, however, are rare.

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Just because we haven't been told that Jon dreams of dragons doesn't mean that he doesn't.

Oh, sure. And I bet he wargs into Sam in between chapters, for the totally non-arbitrary reason that it buttresses a theory that I'm fond of.

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Oh, sure. And I bet he wargs into Sam in between chapters, for the totally non-arbitrary reason that it buttresses a theory that I'm fond of.

I am supposing that the author is careful enough not to say anything that is a dead giveaway to buttress my theory. If Jon were described having dragon dream, we'd have nothing to talk about.

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If Jon were described having dragon dream, we'd have nothing to talk about.

Indeed. The idea that Jon is currently having dragon dreams is still baseless and absurd. There's no precedent for GRRM keeping secret a story-relevant portion of a POV character's current thought process for more than a chapter or so. It's a violation of what it means to have a POV character in the first place.

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It is not arbitrary buttressing (is buttress "verbed" that way? :P ) to point out that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

There's no precedent for GRRM keeping secret a story-relevant portion of a POV character's current thought process for more than a chapter or so. It's a violation of what it means to have a POV character in the first place.

POV characters are utilized in different ways by different authors, there is no one "meaning." And I can think of at least one (admittedly minor) precedent off the top of my head - In ACoK when Tyrion commissions the wildfire and the chain we are not explicitly told why he wants it, he never specifically thinks to himself "I want to light the river on fire and trap all the boats" and for me this was a suitably dramatic and surprising moment because the information was withheld.

However, I really don't think that it's hugely important whether or not Jon's had dreams about dragons... The dragon dreams have been an awesome point of characterization for the Targaryens, they've been a fun red-herring/"omg foreshadowing the biggest shocker ever" with Tyrion, but unless someone can actually provide a quote where Measter Aemon says that only Targaryens ever dream of dragons (because I'm 97% sure that never happened) I just don't see how the dreams can be taken as a particularly strong line of evidence.

On a side note, assuming R+L=J to be true (which of course it may not be) is anyone else worried that it's going to end up de-facto revealed on the show before the books? Because that would make me sad. :crying:

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Pardon the n00b question but why is Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon more likely than Eddard + Ashara = Jon?

It is not. There is no way we can figure out the odds.

But there are indications. It is somewhat out of character of Ned to treat Catelyn like he did if he is Jons father and, say, Ashara his mother (and not some unendurable and unspeakable horror connected to it). And the "my blood" statement, of course.

On the other hand, there are actual vitnesses for the E+A=J hypothesis.

The only ways to explain Neds strange behaviour towards Catelyn when it comes to Jon is that either Jon is not his son or Ned did something really really awful. I'm not sure that, like, raping Ashara would be awful enough ...

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But there are indications. It is somewhat out of character of Ned to treat Catelyn like he did if he is Jons father and, say, Ashara his mother (and not some unendurable and unspeakable horror connected to it). And the "my blood" statement, of course.

On the other hand, 1.there are actual vitnesses for the E+A=J hypothesis.

The only ways to explain Neds strange behaviour towards Catelyn when it comes to Jon is that either Jon is not his son or Ned did something really really awful. I'm not sure that, like, raping Ashara would be awful enough ...

1. Huh? Solder's wishpers are not prove of the E+A=J hypothesis. As far as we could know, solders invented that story because it was obivous there is something amoug A. and E. (or one solder invented and rest of them comfirm romantic and interesting rumor just so) and solder's wifes likely would be happy and content with such kind of story (in fact rumor, but wifes wouldn't care, if this could bring her attention of other women)

As to why Ned behave strange, if Ashara is mother to Jon, there are no evidences in the story. I will call potential psyhoanalysers to try figure potential state of Ned's mind when he scared Cat, but I am not sure will I get an answer.

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People want so badly for L+R = J that they are making stuff up. Jon is not Targaryian. It's too clean and simple and way too obvious. He does not have dragon dreams. ONLY TARGARYIANS have dragon dreams. Dreams are so important in these books.

Jon is not the son of Rhaegar no matter what. Jon is going to meet Dany and they are going to get married. GRRM makes it obvious from the beginning that incest is bad and the bad people are doing it (I like Jaime too but he's a bad dude. Suddenly finding honor does not make up for all the things he did with his sister and trying to kill Bran). He's not going to make Jon blood related to Dany and continue the incest lines.

What about this? Jon is indeed Ned's son with Ashara. And there is another baby of Lyanna and Rhaegar that we just have not seen yet because he is being kept hidden by Howland Reed, who for some reason has not shown up yet and is being very quiet. But he and Ned were the only ones to survive the Tower of Joy battle.

Then Jon Snow can eventually be a weilder of Dawn (wherever that is) since he is part Dayne. And he can meet Dany and not have it be an incest thing. And the 3rd head of the dragon is Lyanna/Rhaegar's child. And this still holds up the massive secrets Ned was carrying. The 3 heads will be Dany, Tyrion and R+L = ?. That makes a lot of sense and it is not just making stuff up like Jon has dragon dreams but the wolf dreams are stronger. That's just absurd.

Another theory I have is that what if Lyanna had twins? And Jon is the one with the Stark traits and the one Reed is hiding is the one with the Targaryian traits? But then you still have the incest thing at the end, which GRRM has proven he does not like and it is frowned upon.

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