Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Lady Blackfish

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

Recommended Posts

I haven't read all of the comments regarding L+R=J, but a piece of evidence I haven't seen discussed is Ghost. I realize that Ghost being albino distinguishes him from the litter, and parallels Jon's bastard status v the Stark kids.

But Ghost has white hair - just like the Targaryens. And Ghost's red eyes remind me of the rubies of Rhaegar's armor, which GRRM refers to often. Even the name of the wolf, 'Ghost', suggests it is Jon's dead parents, L&R, watching over him. Perhaps Ghost could be considered a dragon-wolf hybrid, and Jon's wolf dreams are also dragon dreams.

Or maybe I'm just reading into certain clues wrongly....any thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another thing I noticed is that when Ned would have his POV he never thought of him as his son, he thought of him as the boy. If I were his father I would not refer to him as such.

I believe too that this is obvious thing that support L+R=J. But, just to play devil's advocate, if Jon is Ned's son, then it would mean that Ned is so guilt because that, that he can't even refered his as 'my son'. Or he doesn't think he is worthy enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't read all of the comments regarding L+R=J, but a piece of evidence I haven't seen discussed is Ghost. I realize that Ghost being albino distinguishes him from the litter, and parallels Jon's bastard status v the Stark kids.

But Ghost has white hair - just like the Targaryens. And Ghost's red eyes remind me of the rubies of Rhaegar's armor, which GRRM refers to often. Even the name of the wolf, 'Ghost', suggests it is Jon's dead parents, L&R, watching over him. Perhaps Ghost could be considered a dragon-wolf hybrid, and Jon's wolf dreams are also dragon dreams.

Or maybe I'm just reading into certain clues wrongly....any thoughts?

Okay so I can't keep off the forum. I actually like this idea about Ghost but I see Ghost as a true representation of the Weirwood trees. They are all white with red eyes and red leaves. To me this shows that Jon Snow is somehow connected to the old gods of the children of the forest and the first men. And the Starks have the blood of the first men in them. Another reason I highly doubt Jon is the son of Rhaegar. But your idea is not without merit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do people think about the possibility that Lyanna had twins and Jon Snow is the one with all Stark and the other baby (maybe taken by Howland Reed) is the one with all Targaryen traits? That could be the song of Ice (Jon) and Fire (?). It's a stretch like any theory.

OR...in the house of the Undying Dany sees a man and woman looking at a baby Aegon. Most people believe it is Rhaegar and Elia. But it describes the man as having Rhaegar's hair but he is taller and his eyes are a deep indigo and not prurple like Rhaegar. I don't think that is supposed to be Rhaegar we are seeing. And they don't describe the woman so it could be Elia, Lyanna, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OR...in the house of the Undying Dany sees a man and woman looking at a baby Aegon. Most people believe it is Rhaegar and Elia. But it describes the man as having Rhaegar's hair but he is taller and his eyes are a deep indigo and not prurple like Rhaegar. I don't think that is supposed to be Rhaegar we are seeing. And they don't describe the woman so it could be Elia, Lyanna, etc.

GRRM has confirmed that the vision Dany saw in the House of the Undying was of Elia and Rhaegar.

My guess is that this scene was shortly before Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. His line ("The dragon must have three heads") has always struck me. I've always thought that he was more or less saying that they must have a third child to complete the prophecy. But with Elia's delicate health, it was a risk to get her pregnant and put her through another child birth. This is where Lyanna came in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM has confirmed that the vision Dany saw in the House of the Undying was of Elia and Rhaegar.

My guess is that this scene was shortly before Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. His line ("The dragon must have three heads") has always struck me. I've always thought that he was more or less saying that they must have a third child to complete the prophecy. But with Elia's delicate health, it was a risk to get her pregnant and put her through another child birth. This is where Lyanna came in.

:agree: btw, Rhaegar was right about Elia´s delicate health and Elia knew, by Rahegar´s accounts, that Aegon needed a little brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

btw, Rhaegar was right about Elia´s delicate health and Elia knew, by Rahegar´s accounts, that Aegon needed a little brother.

Actually, Aegon need little sister. Imagine that some woman has two husbands. Like some queen. It would be egregiously and biggest scandal. I think Raeghar hoped for a girl, which isn't usual for regular future dad in Westeros, but reason wasn't usual.

If Lyanna and Raeghar decided what name 'she' will have, Jon's previous name probaby was Viserys. Or she named him Aegon after she see it is a boy and heir presumed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM has confirmed that the vision Dany saw in the House of the Undying was of Elia and Rhaegar.

My guess is that this scene was shortly before Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. His line ("The dragon must have three heads") has always struck me. I've always thought that he was more or less saying that they must have a third child to complete the prophecy. But with Elia's delicate health, it was a risk to get her pregnant and put her through another child birth. This is where Lyanna came in.

Thank you for the clarification. I do think that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child but I don't believe it to be Jon Snow. I think Howland Reed has their child. Maybe Ashara is still alive and in hiding with the child with Howland Reed. Or her grief for killing herself is that she knew her love (Ned) and her son (Jon) were leaving her life forever. This would also make it so Jon can meet Dany and IF they fall in love or marry he won't be doing so to his aunt, which Dany would be if Jon is the son of R+L. I think Jon is truly Ned's son but the mother could be Ashara or Wylla.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM has confirmed that the vision Dany saw in the House of the Undying was of Elia and Rhaegar.

My guess is that this scene was shortly before Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. His line ("The dragon must have three heads") has always struck me. I've always thought that he was more or less saying that they must have a third child to complete the prophecy. But with Elia's delicate health, it was a risk to get her pregnant and put her through another child birth. This is where Lyanna came in.

This has always seemed weak to me. Needing an extra uterus is not a good reason to provoke two or three Great Houses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This has always seemed weak to me. Needing an extra uterus is not a good reason to provoke two or three Great Houses.

That is a good point. However, it cannot be said with any certainty that Rhaegar would care, if he thought the prophecy was truly important. I have the impression that he would not do something without good reason, though, and from what I have seen, there was no good reason for Lyanna to be involved.

What has always bothered me is that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. This does not fit in with my impression of him. Or that he would keep her away from her family in order to grow a child on her.

In order for things to fit in my mind, Lyanna must have come to Rhaegar for help. Or she came to Rhaegar's help. And there must be some compelling reason for her to do so. Child birth would fit. Ah.. so, what if... what if at the tourney at Harrenhal (if it fits the timeline), Lyanna got pregnant. Somehow, by someone, perhaps Rhaegar. If so, the child would be illegitimate, and Lyanna would be in trouble, of sorts. By allowing Lyanna to stay away, he could help her preserve her moral status, and taking the "blame" himself.

Such a secret child could not be brought home by Lyanna, and so Rhaegar might opt to raise the child, thus he would also have his spare dragon. Rhaegar might even see this as fulfillment of the prophecy, and therefore defend it when challenged about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a good point. However, it cannot be said with any certainty that Rhaegar would care, if he thought the prophecy was truly important. I have the impression that he would not do something without good reason, though, and from what I have seen, there was no good reason for Lyanna to be involved.

What has always bothered me is that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. This does not fit in with my impression of him. Or that he would keep her away from her family in order to grow a child on her.

It appears from what we know so far that he did think the prophecy was truly important -- in fact, it seems that his views were rather like Melisandre's, he felt the prophecy was of literally apocalyptic importance and that all other considerations, including how it looked to Great Houses, were irrelevant. And like Melisandre, he seems to have interpreted at least one critical bit wrong.

That doesn't mean that he actually did abduct Lyanna -- Robert said he did, but Robert was hardly someone with a balanced viewpoint on this issue. Given Ned's thoughts when Robert brought the subject up, it doesn't seem like Lyanna was as much in love with Robert as he was with her, so maybe she quite willingly went off with Rhaegar, especially if she agreed that it fulfilled the prophecy. (As chat-up lines go, "You have to sleep with me to save the world!" is somewhat overblown but would doubtless be very effective if you could make it sound convincing. :))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears from what we know so far that he did think the prophecy was truly important -- in fact, it seems that his views were rather like Melisandre's, he felt the prophecy was of literally apocalyptic importance and that all other considerations, including how it looked to Great Houses, were irrelevant. And like Melisandre, he seems to have interpreted at least one critical bit wrong.

That doesn't mean that he actually did abduct Lyanna -- Robert said he did, but Robert was hardly someone with a balanced viewpoint on this issue. Given Ned's thoughts when Robert brought the subject up, it doesn't seem like Lyanna was as much in love with Robert as he was with her, so maybe she quite willingly went off with Rhaegar, especially if she agreed that it fulfilled the prophecy. (As chat-up lines go, "You have to sleep with me to save the world!" is somewhat overblown but would doubtless be very effective if you could make it sound convincing. :))

I just thought of something else... In Dany's vision of Rhaegar, when he says about Aegon "His is the song of ice and fire.", But he also says something like: "But the dragon has three heads, there must be someone else..." So, apparently, at that point, when Aegon was an infant, he did not know he would be putting Lyanna in that role. Assuming the vision was true, of course.

I am not sure about the time line, but it seems to me that if Rhaegar did not know Lyanna was to be the "third head" woman at that point, chances are that coinscidences brought them together. And Rhaegar might possibly have seen some sign to make him believe prophecy was coming to life.

As I recall, with regard to the time line, Brandon et al rode in to the Red Keep when Rhaegar took Lyanna. Brandon would/should/ought not to have been there at all, what with living in Winterfell at the time. So could this have been in connection with the Harrenhal tournament?

How do these things connect in the time line, anyone know?

EDIT:

Apparently, there is a timeline here at westeros.org, although time seems to have moved it.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/History/History03.html was a link google found, and it can be viewed by miracle of the internet archive at:

http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20080830041728/http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/History/History03.html

If someone knows where this document is located currently and can supply a fresh link that'd be nice.

This timeline suggests that Jon was concieved 8-9 months before Daenerys, who supposedly was concieved before her mother left for Dragonstone (immaculate conception excluded). This was in connection with the battle at the Trident, when Rhaegar died, which seems to have been quite some time after the Harrenhal tournament. Thus, Jon was likely not conceived at that tournament, and Lyanna, when she left there with Rhaegar, was not pregnant at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People want so badly for L+R = J that they are making stuff up.

And what are your credentials that you are so worthy to judge other peoples' intellect?

Try rereading the books knowing who Jon's parents are and pay keen attention to the narrative of the flashbacks, not what the characters say.

The key scenes:

Ned's memory of finding Lyanna (and the dead flowers that she holds)

Ned's memory of the tournament of Harrenhal (and what Rhaegar gives to Lyanna)

Dany's journey to the House of the Undying, the blue rose in a wall of ice, and Rhaegar's line "The dragon has three heads. There must be a third."

Meera's tale of the tournament of Harrenhal, told from Howland Reed's perspective

Somewhere there's a flashback, was it from Jaime Lannister? That we learn Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Arthur Dayne were not in King's Landing when Aerys wanted Rhaegar to lead his army against Robert. So he sent Gerold Hightower, Lord Commander of the kingsguard, south to retrieve Rhaegar. Rhaegar came back with 10000 men from Dorne, but Lyanna, Gerold Hightower, and Arthur Dayne remained in the south.

An open question is why didn't Aerys order Hightower to bring Lyanna back to Kings Landing. We don't know if there is a good answer to that and I don't know that anyone has ever asked Martin that exact question.

Of course, there's also the link between Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. All had mothers who died in childbirth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And what are your credentials that you are so worthy to judge other peoples' intellect?

Try rereading the books knowing who Jon's parents are and pay keen attention to the narrative of the flashbacks, not what the characters say.

The key scenes:

Ned's memory of finding Lyanna (and the dead flowers that she holds)

Ned's memory of the tournament of Harrenhal (and what Rhaegar gives to Lyanna)

Dany's journey to the Commander of the kingsguard, south to retrieve Rhaegar. Rhaegar came back with 10000 men from Dorne, but Lyanna, Gerold Hightower, and Arthur Dayne remained in the south.

An open question is why didn't Aerys order Hightower to bring Lyanna back to Kings Landing. We don't know if there is a good answer to that and I don't know that anyone has ever asked Martin that exact question.

Of course, there's also the link between Dany, Jon, and Tyrion. All had mothers who died in childbirth.

You are stating facts. I just like to throw out theories based on what we know. The people trying to say "maybe Jon IS having dragon dreams but the wolf dreams are stronger" or "how do we know Jon doesn't have dragon dreams" are the things that I don't get. They are making stuff up. I was almost positive that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar but he has absolutely no Targaryen traits at all. He is 100% Ned Stark. He has a wolf the color of the weirwood trees. He has a sense of duty and honor. He dreams about being the Lord of Winterfell. He's a warg. Dany, Tyrion (if he is a Targ), Aemon, Viserys, Rhaegar, etc. are obsessed one way or another with dragons, dreaming of them, fascinated about them, think they are one, etc. Stuff like that. I think Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child but it is with Howland Reed. But I am also 99% sure none of us are correct. L+R=J is just too obvious for GRRM. Hopefully ADWD gives us a few more clues and facts. So I am not saying I am smarter or better. I am saying you have to go by the actual facts and clues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child but it is with Howland Reed.

Talk about making stuff up.

That Jon may be Lyanna's child with Howland Reed - now that's a plausible possibility that nobody has brought up before. But I do not believe there is any possibility that Jon is anyone but Lyanna's child. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Talk about making stuff up.

That Jon may be Lyanna's child with Howland Reed - now that's a plausible possibility that nobody has brought up before. But I do not believe there is any possibility that Jon is anyone but Lyanna's child. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming.

I'll buy Jon is the son of Lyanna and Reed before Lyanna and Rhaegar. But it is a "big deal" event then. Why the big secret? Why would Ned take him back to Winterfell and not allow his best friend to have his own son? And there is no history that we know of between the two of them. I think Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara and we have not seen the offspring of L+R. I was really on the theory that Jon is the son of Robert and Lyanna but the timeline is not right for that to have happened.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll buy Jon is the son of Lyanna and Reed before Lyanna and Rhaegar. But it is a "big deal" event then. Why the big secret? Why would Ned take him back to Winterfell and not allow his best friend to have his own son? And there is no history that we know of between the two of them. I think Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara and we have not seen the offspring of L+R. I was really on the theory that Jon is the son of Robert and Lyanna but the timeline is not right for that to have happened.

With respect wood, I think that your main gripe with the L+R theory seems simply that it is the most popular theory, and that perhaps it is "too obvious" for GRRM to give to us. First of course, just because something is popular does not necessarily make it less likely - of course we should discourage "popular herd following" but at the same time if the popular view has had plenty of evidence to back it up, I think it wrong to simply throw it out on grounds of it being popular. Jon's parentage being L+R has a substantial weight of foreshadowing and hints already, and should GRRM strike out on another explanation, he might be doing so at the cost of disregarding everything that he has already written. As you yourself admit, Reed being Jon's father will make little sense since Ned Stark's dreams, memories and guilt will all become nonsense.

Second on the matter of obviousness - if you find L+R=J to be too obvious, isn't it even more obvious for a theory of Ned and Ashara, or for that matter any of the other explicitly suggested explanations already given in the text? I think GRRM has stated that the parentage of Jon will be explained in later books, and this necessarily implies that current explanations are either untrue or half true. As such I think that L+R=J answers the questions (at least based on what evidence we have now) far better than the various other theories. Everything, of course, still open to being disproven.

Finally, on the matter of dragon dreams. I realize that the discussion has already moved beyond this so I ask for everyone's indulgence for a bit. I think that the usage of POV characters allows for an author to do a couple of things. The traditional idea is that it presents the character's thoughts and feelings to the reader. In a more exciting way though, the POV method enables the author to hide facts and instead of just telling them, suggest things to the reader. An example of this is where GRRM tells the story in the language and terms of the POV character, and not the language and terms of us the readers. The whole story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree for example, is an instance of how even though something was in the POV, it was not made explicitly clear to us precisely because it was in a POV. Thus I think that you have to first realize that simply because something is in POV it does not mean that everything has to be stated explicitly.

Having said that, I will acknowledge that even though things need not be stated explicitly, a good author will still suggest and foreshadow. Consequently, Jon has yet to have anything akin to a dragon dream, and as such this counts against the idea that he is actually having dragon dreams. In short if he is later revealed to be having dragon dreams all this while, it will be incongruent in the narrative simply because we were never clued in on it. It will sadly be something tacked on and artificial.

I do however attack the basic assumption of the dragon dreams, in that Targs MUST dream about dragons. First of course this is never really stated anywhere, but that in itself counts for little in a series that has so much suggestion and foreshadowing. What I think is more telling is that while every Targ character has had dragon dreams, these are characters well aware of their heritage. Their dreams thus could come simply of the fact that they know they are Targs, and the kind of lore that they all grew up on, rather than from the fact they are Targs per se.

The main problem though is Tyrion. He has dragon dreams, and so if the theory holds true he must be a Targ. But at the same time, the argument is circular because the only evidence of him being a Targ is that he has dragon dreams. In the end, writing it out the argument is that Tyrion is a targ because he has dragon dreams, and he has dragon dreams because he is a Targ. Surely you would realize that problems in this argument. So unless an explanation can be made for Tyrion and whether he really is a Targ or not, the idea that Targs MUST dream about dragons is in itself very questionable. And so in balance, the doubts raised by it does not really hold up to the much stronger inferences one can draw from the L+R=J theory.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×