The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Mostly just the heightened level of perception Jojen posses. For example: he is able to discern, quite quickly and with little questioning, that Bran is a Warg.

Jon is able to sense Bran in Summer, and Orell's presence in the eagle. The wildlings readily discern that Jon is a potential warg. Melisandre can discern that somebody is warging into the eagle flying by Castle Black.

The wights can discern Varamyr's presence in his wolf. Bran and Varamyr recognize each other in their respective wolves.

So I think that's something about wargs, not something about the greensight in particular.

In general, he always seems to be able to assess a situation rather quickly and determine a course of action. Most of those assessments usually involve shooting down ideas from Bran or Meera that are often based on impulses or feelings they do not share with him directly.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it sounds like you're describing self-possession rather than the greensight.

I know it's a bit of a stretch, but Meera seemed to have told the 'Howlan Reed at Harrenhal' story to Bran for a specific (albeit cryptic) reason.

What makes you say that? She tells the story because she's asked to tell a story. She may not have much of a head for stories, and that's one that she remembers being told about a lot.

[lacuna]

Obvious or not, GRRM originally envisioned three books, not seven, and I doubt he thought it would take him, what, 15 years so far, unscheduled stops notwithstanding.

If the original plan had been for 7 books, the clues might have been scattered out a bit more than they are, making it less obvious (if R+L=J is indeed true) halfway through the series.

Not that I'm complaining, it's still not definite, and ultimately I don't care if Jon is the bastard son of a camp follower and a Karhold foot soldier*, so long as he has a part to play and plays it well. (I.e. George plays it well.)

ETA: Ok, so I'd be a little miffed... Sue me.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Maybe. Even under the theory, there's large chunks of the story that we don't know about, and the story implications of the theory still aren't necessarily obvious. So I don't know that it's something that he would have changed.

[lacuna]

Well, I did write "or not", "might have been", "If R+L=J is indeed true" and "it's still not definite", so I think I'm safe. :P

But we do have means, motive and opportunity for R+L=J, right? All that's lacking is evidence. But it could swing either way.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

But we do have means, motive and opportunity for R+L=J, right?

Sure. IIRC, you could have deduced the bare fact of Jon's parentage based on A Game of Thrones alone, if you were paying attention. But you wouldn't necessarily have known what it meant. By AFFC, we know that it took place in the context of Rhaegar preparing his son Aegon to be the prince who was promised, which pulls the curtain back further. What I'm saying is that I assume the curtain will be pulled back further still in subsequent books, at which point the full import of the revelation will be clear.

[MightilyOats]

Yet the story itself makes no mention of a connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Someone may have called you out on this already, but you must be joking.

We find out that the she wolf was indeed crowned the queen of love and beauty...but that's a sadder tale, for another time.

Then, it's either earlier or later in a Daenerys chapter, we find out it was RHAEGAR that crowned her such.

That's the connection right there.

[Lord of Autumn's End]

But Ghost has white hair - just like the Targaryens. And Ghost's red eyes remind me of the rubies of Rhaegar's armor, which GRRM refers to often. Even the name of the wolf, 'Ghost', suggests it is Jon's dead parents, L&R, watching over him. Perhaps Ghost could be considered a dragon-wolf hybrid, and Jon's wolf dreams are also dragon dreams.

Or maybe I'm just reading into certain clues wrongly....any thoughts?

I do personally believe R+L=J, but I have to admit, it sounds like you're grabbing at straws there. There is quite a bit of evidence for the theory, but Ghost's appearance should hardly be treated as a clue by way of symbolism. You might as well say that because Jon wears black and has red chips of garnet in the pommel of Longclaw, the author was dropping a clue.

Okay so I can't keep off the forum. I actually like this idea about Ghost but I see Ghost as a true representation of the Weirwood trees. They are all white with red eyes and red leaves. To me this shows that Jon Snow is somehow connected to the old gods of the children of the forest and the first men. And the Starks have the blood of the first men in them. Another reason I highly doubt Jon is the son of Rhaegar. But your idea is not without merit.

I don't know if you understand how genetics work, but its possible for a son to take after his mother. Your points prove nothing either way.

What do people think about the possibility that Lyanna had twins and Jon Snow is the one with all Stark and the other baby (maybe taken by Howland Reed) is the one with all Targaryen traits? That could be the song of Ice (Jon) and Fire (?). It's a stretch like any theory.

Some theories are a greater stretch than others. You could make a case that baby Aegon was switched before the Red Keep was sacked so that he's still alive, but there's absolutely no evidence for a Jon+Twin theory. And if it were the case, what did Ned do with it? Decide he only had room in the wagon for a single kid?

Thank you for the clarification. I do think that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a child but I don't believe it to be Jon Snow. I think Howland Reed has their child. Maybe Ashara is still alive and in hiding with the child with Howland Reed. Or her grief for killing herself is that she knew her love (Ned) and her son (Jon) were leaving her life forever. This would also make it so Jon can meet Dany and IF they fall in love or marry he won't be doing so to his aunt, which Dany would be if Jon is the son of R+L. I think Jon is truly Ned's son but the mother could be Ashara or Wylla.

R+L=J is the only real theory that makes sense for someone to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Seems to me like you're simply making excuses otherwise because you don't want to see Jon and Dany hook up (not to say I think they totally should or anything).

This has always seemed weak to me. Needing an extra uterus is not a good reason to provoke two or three Great Houses.

Agreed. I think Rhaegar probably fell in love with Lyanna and vice versa, and it simply fit neatly into his plans for his children. I do wonder though, if he realised at the time the scale of the consequences or if he simply didn't care about them.

You are stating facts. I just like to throw out theories based on what we know. The people trying to say "maybe Jon IS having dragon dreams but the wolf dreams are stronger" or "how do we know Jon doesn't have dragon dreams" are the things that I don't get. They are making stuff up. I was almost positive that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar but he has absolutely no Targaryen traits at all. He is 100% Ned Stark. He has a wolf the color of the weirwood trees. He has a sense of duty and honor. He dreams about being the Lord of Winterfell. He's a warg. Dany, Tyrion (if he is a Targ), Aemon, Viserys, Rhaegar, etc. are obsessed one way or another with dragons, dreaming of them, fascinated about them, think they are one, etc. Stuff like that. I think Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child but it is with Howland Reed. But I am also 99% sure none of us are correct. L+R=J is just too obvious for GRRM. Hopefully ADWD gives us a few more clues and facts. So I am not saying I am smarter or better. I am saying you have to go by the actual facts and clues.

I took the liberty of bolding parts of your argument to illustrate one of the errors you're making. They're not stating facts, they're proposing possible solutions that fit into the theories they already have without dropping any of the evidence. There is a difference.

As for the underlined part, let me get this straight, you're trying to refute the evidence of R+L=J... by saying there's too much of it? Surely you can see that that's a logical fallacy?

I'd also just like to point out, with the exception of Ned's death (though some readers might argue differently) and the Red Wedding, GRRM hasn't really smashed us over the head with any shocking plot twists. That's not a criticism of his writing ability, simply an observation. Plot twists are not what makes an author great. Except maybe in the Thriller genre, but that's a separate issue.

I'll buy Jon is the son of Lyanna and Reed before Lyanna and Rhaegar. But it is a "big deal" event then. Why the big secret? Why would Ned take him back to Winterfell and not allow his best friend to have his own son? And there is no history that we know of between the two of them. I think Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara and we have not seen the offspring of L+R. I was really on the theory that Jon is the son of Robert and Lyanna but the timeline is not right for that to have happened.

See, this is just nonsense. You don't want Jon to be the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, so you're refusing to consider it. You are however, prepared to consider ridiculous crack theories that make no sense whatsoever. If you close your mind to other people's arguments, why are you on the boards arguing about it? You're wasting the time of other fans who are trying to have a genuine discussion.

Its cool for you to not want something to happen, if that's the case simply say so and walk away.

[willmmmm]

Someone may have called you out on this already, but you must be joking.

We find out that the she wolf was indeed crowned the queen of love and beauty...but that's a sadder tale, for another time.

Then, it's either earlier or later in a Daenerys chapter, we find out it was RHAEGAR that crowned her such.

That's the connection right there.

Oops, yeah you are totally right. I forgot that line of her story. My bad.

I wonder what subtle hint or message she was trying to communicate to Bran with her story then? I cant believe (as Peter Dykman-Campbell suggests in a post above) that is was just a story for a story's sake to pass the time. Everything the Reeds do seems to be deliberate or have some portent to it.

(This might be better posted in a different thread, I'm still getting used to the layout/navigation of this board)

[MightilyOats]

I don't think it was necessarily deliberate on Meera's part, but more deliberate of George for our sake.

And instead of having her say, flat-out, that the she wolf was crowned by the sad prince, he spreads out the information, and into two different PoVs.

Man knows what he's doing. Any good writer thinks he's the greatest thing ever, and will drop hints and vague foreshadowings early on that you will only ever REALLY notice on multiple readthroughs.

It's something that George is particularly good at, and I can only imagine how much he's fretting that so many people have figured out his big reveal before he was ready to tell us. He can't play the "you're not as smart as I am" card. And golly, does he like playing that card.

[Ser Martov]

I thought the idea behind meeras story was to start to introduce the idea that R and L were in love,

If you believe that she was indeed the Knight of the laughing tree. It was there they began to fall in love.

Perhaps it is also to imply to the readers that howland reed does know of that L+R=J and perhaps he has told his children. It would explain why meera was so surprised they had not heard it not knowing that Ned would keep L+R=J a secret from his own family

[Aoqi]

Hi

I was working on my own personal crackpot theory last night and I realized something.

Since I'm kind of too lazy to wade through the entire R+L=J debate, I was wondering if anyone had brought up the fact that GRRM's estimates on Jon and Dany's births sort of contradict R+L=J

[SFDanny]

Hi

I was working on my own personal crackpot theory last night and I realized something.

Since I'm kind of too lazy to wade through the entire R+L=J debate, I was wondering if anyone had brought up the fact that GRRM's estimates on Jon and Dany's births sort of contradict R+L=J

How so?

Having looked at this for quite some time my estimate is just the opposite. Martin tells us that Daenerys is born some "nine moons" after Rhaella's and Viserys's flight from King's Landing shortly before the sack of that city by Lord Tywin's troops. He then later tells us, outside of the books, that Jon is "eight to nine" months older than Dany. Which tells us Jon should have been born either around the time of the sack to around a month to say six weeks later as rough estimates. It also means Jon's conception takes place some three to four months into the rebellion. All of which fits nicely into the R+L=J hypothesis. The conception occurs while Rhaegar and Lyanna are together and the birth fits within the possible time frame of Neds arrival at the Tower of Joy (by way of the sack and lifting the siege at Storm's End.) None of which proves the theory, but none of which "contradicts" it either.

[A Redeemed Hound]

See, this is just nonsense. You don't want Jon to be the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, so you're refusing to consider it. You are however, prepared to consider ridiculous crack theories that make no sense whatsoever. If you close your mind to other people's arguments, why are you on the boards arguing about it? You're wasting the time of other fans who are trying to have a genuine discussion.

Its cool for you to not want something to happen, if that's the case simply say so and walk away.

[A Redeemed Hound]

How so?

Having looked at this for quite some time my estimate is just the opposite. Martin tells us that Daenerys is born some "nine moons" after Rhaella's and Viserys's flight from King's Landing shortly before the sack of that city by Lord Tywin's troops. He then later tells us, outside of the books, that Jon is "eight to nine" months older than Dany. Which tells us Jon should have been born either around the time of the sack to around a month to say six weeks later as rough estimates. It also means Jon's conception takes place some three to four months into the rebellion. All of which fits nicely into the R+L=J hypothesis. The conception occurs while Rhaegar and Lyanna are together and the birth fits within the possible time frame of Neds arrival at the Tower of Joy (by way of the sack and lifting the siege at Storm's End.) None of which proves the theory, but none of which "contradicts" it either.

:agree:

[SFDanny]

Woodbyrne, have you ever read the great Greek plays about Oedipus? In it the title character "bangs" his mother - not knowing that she is his mother. I cite this only as an example of how the hero engaging in incest hardly makes for a poor story. My guess is that if Martin is going to bring Dany and Jon together into a romantic relationship that we are headed more in the direction of Oedipus than, say, Sleeping Beauty's happily ever after. Anyway, your or my guesses of where the story is headed are hardly evidence for or against R+L=J. I'd also disagree with your estimate of Martin's use of incest as far too simplistic. Is Egg evil? How about Tommen and Myrcella? I don't think so.

[Aoqi]

First of all

I am a die-hard R+L=J fan

I will be unbelievably disappointed if it turns out not to be true. I agree that the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I wasn't calling this a crackpot theory. I just wanted to make sure that no one had brought it up. Please don't call me a d-bag

also

I said sort of

Secondly, here was my reasoning

The timeline

• Rhaella and Viserys escape to Dragonstone after the battle of the trident
  
• Tower of Joy
  
• Rhaella Dies/Dany is born
  

The facts and assumptions that I was working off of:

Dany is born 9 months after Jon

Jon is born at the Tower of Joy around the time that Eddard finds Lyanna (going off of the idea that she was dying in childbirth at the time)

If Dany is Aerys and Rhaella's child she would have to have been conceived sometime before their flight to Dragonstone (Unless Aerys came to visit Dragonstone, which I personally doubt)

If Dany was conceived around the time that Jon was born, she couldn't have been conceived around the Battle at the Tower of Joy

So either Jon was not born at the Tower of Joy (under the circumstances stated above) or Dany's birth and/or parentage is a lot fuzzier.

or I'm being super nitpicky about a minor offhand detail given by the author (my personal favorite option)

[MightilyOats]

Oh, and by the by, the idea that Lyanna was the Knight is one of the stupidest fan theories I have ever fucking heard.

[A Redeemed Hound]

First of all

I am a die-hard R+L=J fan

I will be unbelievably disappointed if it turns out not to be true. I agree that the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I wasn't calling this a crackpot theory. I just wanted to make sure that no one had brought it up. Please don't call me a d-bag

also

I said sort of

Secondly, here was my reasoning

The timeline

• Rhaella and Viserys escape to Dragonstone after the battle of the trident
  
• Tower of Joy
  
• Rhaella Dies/Dany is born
  

The facts and assumptions that I was working off of:

Dany is born 9 months after Jon

Jon is born at the Tower of Joy around the time that Eddard finds Lyanna (going off of the idea that she was dying in childbirth at the time)

If Dany is Aerys and Rhaella's child she would have to have been conceived sometime before their flight to Dragonstone (Unless Aerys came to visit Dragonstone, which I personally doubt)

If Dany was conceived around the time that Jon was born, she couldn't have been conceived around the Battle at the Tower of Joy

So either Jon was not born at the Tower of Joy (under the circumstances stated above) or Dany's birth and/or parentage is a lot fuzzier.

or I'm being super nitpicky about a minor offhand detail given by the author (my personal favorite option)

Timing is key for all of the events in the books. GRRM cannot even get things straight, which coincides with his Mereenese knot. A timeline would be amazing in ADWD but I doubt that is going to happen. From GRRM's notes and e-mails, Jon Snow is born around the same time as when Rhaegar gets killed. Dany is born "almost" nine months after Rhaegar is killed. Maybe with the news of Rhaegar's death, Aery's tries one more time to get his wife pregnant before shipping them to Dragonstone? It seems like everything we are told is "give or take a month or two." And you are certainly not a d-bag. That is for people who simply flame other people on their theories and counter you with their own unproven ideas. They are all the same. Unproven ideas and theories. I am sure none of us are correct. It's just fun to throw out theories while we wait decades for a book to come out.

[Ser Martov]

i fail to see L=KOLT is as ridiculous, it is not unheard of for northern women to be warriors and it sounds like more arya like than sansa. it explains the slight build and use of a old god symbol and is better than howland pulling a CotF out of his arse. as for howland reed, he may be a good fighter but i doubt he succeded at the ToJ due to his prowess in fighting in heavy armour and skill at the lists

[Lord of Autumn's End]

The way the books are going, it would not fit properly for Jon to be the son of L+R.

No. You don't think it would fit properly. Newsflash: your opinion is not the one that decides what is and isn't appropriate for the series. That's for GRRM to decide, we're simply making theories with the stuff he's already given us. It might be wrong. It might be correct. We don't know with complete certainty and neither do you.

I agree that there are a lot of clues pointing to that being true but there are just as many pointing to it being false. The one thing I am 100% certain about is that we are ALL wrong and if GRRM ever finishes the series (doubtful), we will see that.

There is evidence that can be used to disprove R+L=J, but most of that is open to alternative interpretation or can be treated as a Red Herring by the people who believe in this theory. I would strongly disagree however, in your belief that there are 'just as many' clues pointing to it being wrong.

The only thing we can be sure about is that Jon Snow is half Stark. If, like some people say, Jon is to meet and mary Dany, then it would be another case of incest, which GRRM pretty much has shown is a bad thing done by bad (Cersei/Jaime) or crazy (Targaryens) people. It is considered an abomination in the books. It would be a poor story is Jon bangs his aunt. And kind of stupid as well. The Targaryen incest is clearly going to stop.

Okay, firstly no one has ever claimed that we know Jon is ever anything more than half-Stark. Plenty of people have some really strong suspicions as to his heritage, but that's not the same thing as knowing.

Secondly, assuming R+L=J is true, Dany is his aunt, not his sister, and while its still incest, its no worse than marrying one's cousin, which is considered perfectly natural in Westeros. Also, I'm no expert on US law, but aren't there plenty of states where marriage to a cousin is legal? Dany may even be barren as well, if what Mirri told her is true, in which case there would be no harm in it. I'd also like to point out, that even if R+L=J is true, Dany may still marry another man for the sake of an alliance or just not want to sleep with Jon. Jon may not want to sleep with her. You are assuming way, way too much at this point and letting your prejudices colour your thinking.

Dany is not insane like her brother and father and it would not feel natural for her to consider having incest.

There was more like that, so much more, what a handsome man the khal was, so tall and fierce, fearless in battle, the best rider to ever mount a horse, a demon archer. Daenaerys said nothing. She had always assumed that she would wed Viserys when she came of age. For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride.

As for the twins theory, it was just a thought. Tell me how it is not possible? Howland Reed could have taken the other child. I don't think this is the case but it is not as crazy as your d-bag comments suggest. If R+L had a child (which to me they did) we have not seen it yet. I feel it is with Howland Reed. I am sure I am wrong, as we are all wrong, but it makes for the better story so far for me.

I assume my theory that Tyrion is Targaryen is insane as well?

The Twins theory is not impossible in the same way that its not impossible that Robert isn't actually dead, for example. The fact is that there is no evidence to suggest that Jon has a twin, and it would actually undermine the R+L=J theory. Ned claimed Jon as his bastard, if Jon had a twin, Ned would have claimed them both as his bastards and simply said that that they were twins. Whether Lyanna had given birth to one child or two would not have changed Ned's actions. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest it happened, beyond your 'feeling that it is with Howland Reed'. You even said that you are 'sure that you are wrong', then you took offense at me when I pointed out that is almost certainly wrong, unless GRRM pulls out a magical twin for Jon at the end of the series. What makes for a better story for you does not necessarily do the same for anyone else.