The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX

[thupple]

I didn't remember this passage, and I was wrong, even though him breaking his word would still make the most sense to me. I knew I shouldn't have posted.

Of course this does not tell us what promises he made, though.

I don't think you were wrong, EB.

Quoting from thread VIII, p18

<snip> Dreadwolf - Posted 24 November 2010 - 07:32 AM

Unless I have forgotten something the exact quote would be:

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

But that was after he had been imprisoned in the Red Keep Dungeon. Untill that moment (IIRC) we cannot be so sure that Ned though about the promises as of having been broken. (but might be as of not yet accomplished?)

If it is so - we could speculate that part of the promise would just have been that Ned had undertaken to reveal something to Jon when the boy is of appropriate age or the best circumstances come. Eddard did one last attempt in that respect in the dungeon <snip>

I think that Dreadwolf had it right. These two websites have excellent compendiums of sourced quotes:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

http://www.myspace.com/adamthornhollowrec/blog/144839061

Taken altogether, the indication is that it was at least a two part promise, something like, "protect my son, but eventually let him know who and what he is." My thinking is Ned kept part one, but not part two.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Just to say:

“Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.”She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

That also could mean that Ned feared that some of soldiers could remember some details which could made people wonder, like Cat or even Jon, WTF?!** And, stil. If Ned want to tell Jon who his mother is when Jon was, say 18, it can acomplish contra effect if Jon heard some rumors about Ashara or, even worste, about mysterious woman who starts where his aunt, who has sex with crown prince, ends.

[MattTaz]

ROTFLMAO

GRRM doesn't give answers.

In all seriousness, we do know that Jon will learn about his parentage, I just think Jon's going to find Howland. Not the other way around.

For those who read Wheel of Time, it will be just like Asmodean's killer.

You'll read it in the glossary, House Stark - Jon Snow raised by Ned Stark but secretly Lyanna Stark's son :P

Did anyone find it funny when GRRM said 'Jon and Robb are as close as brothers' in the AGOT TV series update?

Or was this just me :)

[Lady Winter Rose]

You'll read it in the glossary, House Stark - Jon Snow raised by Ned Stark but secretly Lyanna Stark's son :P

Did anyone find it funny when GRRM said 'Jon and Robb are as close as brothers' in the AGOT TV series update?

Or was this just me :)

:agree:

[Salome the Persian Witch]

Did anyone find it funny when GRRM said 'Jon and Robb are as close as brothers' in the AGOT TV series update?

Or was this just me :)

It made me very very happy! :D

[krakenfisher]

Jon was burned by fire, he does not have the blood of a dragon.

Having the blood of a dragon didn't help Aerion Brightfire much when he drank a cup of wildfire, nor Viserys when he received his golden crown from Drogo ... Targaryens aren't immune to fire, the birth-of-the-dragons incident with Dany was a one-off that involved ancient magics mostly unrelated to the Targaryens.

[Maegor Targaryen]

I don't think you were wrong, EB.

Quoting from thread VIII, p18

<snip> Dreadwolf - Posted 24 November 2010 - 07:32 AM

Unless I have forgotten something the exact quote would be:

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

But that was after he had been imprisoned in the Red Keep Dungeon. Untill that moment (IIRC) we cannot be so sure that Ned though about the promises as of having been broken. (but might be as of not yet accomplished?)

If it is so - we could speculate that part of the promise would just have been that Ned had undertaken to reveal something to Jon when the boy is of appropriate age or the best circumstances come. Eddard did one last attempt in that respect in the dungeon <snip>

I think that Dreadwolf had it right. These two websites have excellent compendiums of sourced quotes:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

http://www.myspace.com/adamthornhollowrec/blog/144839061

Taken altogether, the indication is that it was at least a two part promise, something like, "protect my son, but eventually let him know who and what he is." My thinking is Ned kept part one, but not part two.

couldn't find the quote that this guy quoted. but What i think is that, Ned is having bad dreams of what he doesnt want to happen. So blood and Broken Promises is what he wouldnt want to see

[krakenfisher]

A point that came up on the last thread, but which went off in other directions: assuming this theory to be true for the moment, is there any textual evidence to suggest that Jon could be Rhaegar's legitimate son and therefore the true heir to the throne -- other than the fact of three top men from the Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy defending the occupants, rather than on Dragonstone guarding Viserys? It certainly seems like a logical extension given that the Targaryens are quite willing to write their own marriage laws -- they marry brother to sister as Aegon the Conqueror did, so why not more than one wife like he did too? A King can basically legitimise anything.

An interesting thought is that if the three heads of the dragon are all supposed to be Targaryens as Rhaegar thought, even with Jon we're one Targaryen short. Unless Aegon really did survive, but that would be a bit of a letdown in terms of narrative -- it would mean the "legitimate" king is someone we've never even had a hint of before ADwD.

[KingSnow]

An interesting thought is that if the three heads of the dragon are all supposed to be Targaryens as Rhaegar thought, even with Jon we're one Targaryen short. Unless Aegon really did survive, but that would be a bit of a letdown in terms of narrative -- it would mean the "legitimate" king is someone we've never even had a hint of before ADwD.

Maybe the other head could be one of Robert's bastards, like Gendry or Edric Storm? I mean he has Baratheon blood in him, and they have some Targaryen blood.

[Sidonie]

Maybe the other head could be one of Robert's bastards, like Gendry or Edric Storm? I mean he has Baratheon blood in him, and they have some Targaryen blood.

Well...there's one theory that Tyrion could be one of Aerys's bastards...that he maybe raped Joanna Lannister, who died giving birth to Tyrion. That could be the reason Tywin hates Tyrion so much. 'Cuz really, if you had a child who happened to be a dwarf, would you really hate him for it?

Possible points that would allude to this: Tyrion has white-blonde hair, and also dreams of dragons, like other Targs. He's also exceedingly intelligent, like Rhaegar.

Not that I believe this theory is true...it's just something interesting to think about.

[KingSnow]

Well...there's one theory that Tyrion could be one of Aerys's bastards...that he maybe raped Joanna Lannister, who died giving birth to Tyrion. That could be the reason Tywin hates Tyrion so much. 'Cuz really, if you had a child who happened to be a dwarf, would you really hate him for it?

Possible points that would allude to this: Tyrion has white-blonde hair, and also dreams of dragons, like other Targs. He's also exceedingly intelligent, like Rhaegar.

Not that I believe this theory is true...it's just something interesting to think about.

But I think that would destroy the whole "I am you writ small, father" thing. The paradox of the fact that Tywin hates Tyrion so much, yet Tyrion is soooo much more his child than Jame and Cersei is one of the reasons I like Tyrion.

[corbon]

But I think that would destroy the whole "I am you writ small, father" thing. The paradox of the fact that Tywin hates Tyrion so much, yet Tyrion is soooo much more his child than Jame and Cersei is one of the reasons I like Tyrion.

Indeed, which is one of several reasons it is an unlikely theory.

But it is far from impossible.

After all, Tyrion shares only some of Tywin's attributes, and you would expect him to share some attributes with the man he is raised to believe is his father - emulation etc. It is really more remarkable that Jaime and Cersei are so unlike Tywin. Tyrion is really not so much Tywin's child, as Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's children.

Tyrion is smart/cunning, a survivor and good at manipulating people. Those three really go together, and the first is not particularly a 'Tywin' trait, even if Tywin has it - I mean, it is a trait shared by many people all over the place.

Tyrion uses whores, so does Tywin. Erm, so what! Tyrion has a Lannister attitude to debts etc - I'd say that is a learned trait not a bred trait.

What else to they share? Compassion? A thirst for knowledge? Unrelenting arrogance?

In short, the only thing I think they really share is that they are both smart/cunning and good at manipulating people. And these related qualities are far from solely owned by Twyin Lannister. Given that Jaime is practically the opposite of these qualities, and Cersei's use of them is frustrated or damaged by inner rage and madness, that makes Tyrion the most like Tywin by the thinnest of threads - but still the most and still supports Genna's (?) claim that Tyrion is most Tywin's child.

And "I am you writ small" could easily be not a lot more than the combination of desire and a recognition that he is much more like his father in the way he thinks and acts than his siblings are, combining with resentment that his father never acknowledges that he has those very abilities that make him most like Tywin.

Or it is simple and straitforward that Tyrion is indeed Tywins son and truest heir (in the sense of personality rather than legality).

But more than one possibility still exist.

[KingSnow]

Indeed, which is one of several reasons it is an unlikely theory.

But it is far from impossible.

After all, Tyrion shares only some of Tywin's attributes, and you would expect him to share some attributes with the man he is raised to believe is his father - emulation etc. It is really more remarkable that Jaime and Cersei are so unlike Tywin. Tyrion is really not so much Tywin's child, as Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's children.

Tyrion is smart/cunning, a survivor and good at manipulating people. Those three really go together, and the first is not particularly a 'Tywin' trait, even if Tywin has it - I mean, it is a trait shared by many people all over the place.

Tyrion uses whores, so does Tywin. Erm, so what! Tyrion has a Lannister attitude to debts etc - I'd say that is a learned trait not a bred trait.

What else to they share? Compassion? A thirst for knowledge? Unrelenting arrogance?

In short, the only thing I think they really share is that they are both smart/cunning and good at manipulating people. And these related qualities are far from solely owned by Twyin Lannister. Given that Jaime is practically the opposite of these qualities, and Cersei's use of them is frustrated or damaged by inner rage and madness, that makes Tyrion the most like Tywin by the thinnest of threads - but still the most and still supports Genna's (?) claim that Tyrion is most Tywin's child.

And "I am you writ small" could easily be not a lot more than the combination of desire and a recognition that he is much more like his father in the way he thinks and acts than his siblings are, combining with resentment that his father never acknowledges that he has those very abilities that make him most like Tywin.

Or it is simple and straitforward that Tyrion is indeed Tywins son and truest heir (in the sense of personality rather than legality).

But more than one possibility still exist.

If Tyrion is a Targ bastard, what keeps Tywin from saying so? I mean if Tyrion is such a disappointment to Tywin, what stopped him from just saying "He doesn't get the love of whorses (and whatever else he hates about Tyrion) from me, he's not mine."

[Lord of Autumn's End]

If Tyrion is a Targ bastard, what keeps Tywin from saying so? I mean if Tyrion is such a disappointment to Tywin, what stopped him from just saying "He doesn't get the love of whorses (and whatever else he hates about Tyrion) from me, he's not mine."

Simply saying something doesn't make it so.

"You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse."

Besides, Tywin loved his wife, and I doubt he'd ever considered that Tyrion isn't really his blood, even if he wished he had an excuse to claim he wasn't.

[krakenfisher]

Besides, Tywin loved his wife, and I doubt he'd ever considered that Tyrion isn't really his blood, even if he wished he had an excuse to claim he wasn't.

When Tyrion asks for Casterley Rock at the beginning of ASoS and Tywin tells him "never", he does seem to be putting it pretty strong: "I can't prove you're not mine but I'm damned if I let you get the Rock".

[Aerion Brightflame]

Having the blood of a dragon didn't help Aerion Brightfire much when he drank a cup of wildfire, nor Viserys when he received his golden crown from Drogo ... Targaryens aren't immune to fire, the birth-of-the-dragons incident with Dany was a one-off that involved ancient magics mostly unrelated to the Targaryens.

Even in this circumstance, Dany wasn't exactly immune to the fire...her hair burned away, and her skin was scorched. You're right, its more kind of an inclination towards heat, like how Dany enjoys her bath water extremely hot.

Sorry that isn't in the flow of the discussion here...just came across it while reading the page and thought I'd add some input.

[evanesco75]

I also read that GRRM said Dany's survival was a one-time miracle?

I really do believe Tyrion is Tywin's. Always did, and was especially convinced when Lady Genna said so to Jaime. I know it could be a red herring, but the entire Tyrion/Tywin arc is so poetic and tragic largely to their father/son relationship.

Tywin was a ruthless cold bastard who despised any sort of weakness. Well, Tyrion was small and weak and ugly, and likely a reason for people to mock not just him, but Tywin himself. Also, the only person Tywin genuinely seemed to love was Joanna, and she died birthing Tyrion.

I'd say those are grounds enough and in fact, accepting the hard truth of being Tyrion's true father would be the final humiliation for Tywin. Much more powerful than Tyrion being another man's get. Tywin thought himself perfect and invincible, yet he fathered a 'grotesque'. Isn't that the best comeuppance? Well, second to actually being killed by said offspring, at any rate.

Reminds me of The Tudors and Henry's horror at discovering that the premature son Anne gave him was, in fact, deformed. 'The child was deformed, Charles? How can it be mine?'

The sheer arrogance is breathtaking.

Lastly, is it explicitly stated that the 3 heads of the dragon must be Targs? Couldn't Tyrion be 1 while also being a Lannister? And had Dany married Jorah, he would've become one and he was a Mormont.

[HawkZ]

I also believe that Tyrion is pure Lannister, but even if he was part Targ that doesn't suddenly mean that Tywin isn't his father. However abusively, Tywin raised Tyrion as his son and Tyrion very much viewed Tywin as his father.

In some ways, the irony of "Tywin writ small" is just as effective if Tyrion isn't biologically his - by trying to make Tyrion a "bastard" Tywin actually made Aerys' kid his truest son.

[Maegor Targaryen]

Well...there's one theory that Tyrion could be one of Aerys's bastards...that he maybe raped Joanna Lannister, who died giving birth to Tyrion. That could be the reason Tywin hates Tyrion so much. 'Cuz really, if you had a child who happened to be a dwarf, would you really hate him for it?

Possible points that would allude to this: Tyrion has white-blonde hair, and also dreams of dragons, like other Targs. He's also exceedingly intelligent, like Rhaegar.

Not that I believe this theory is true...it's just something interesting to think about.

i could see that happening, and then my other thought would be true. Tyrion's blood would be basterd blood, Jon's Blood is bastard blood(asuming R+L wasnt married), and if William Darry is actually Daenerys' father(different theory) then she would be a basterd too, (asuming R+L=J and Lyanna died in child birth) and that would mean they all have dragon blood and all they're mothers died giving birth. So they would all be the 3 heads of the dragon.

[RSasoiaf]

Bran is slowly moving beyond Jon's reach and Rickon is what? 4? Confirmation of R+L=J will almost have to come from Howland Reed. No one else can speak credibly on the subject. If R+L=J isn't true then it's possible that Jon will meet his birth mother or one of her relatives who knows the truth. Here's a hint, look for someone with the last name Dayne.

I allways thought that the Reeds would spill the truth to Brann, sometime soon. They seemed to be well into all the affair bettween Lyanna and Rhaegar. Also, they seemed to have been told about it in quite a romantic way. Maybe the true history is more public among the Reed´s then we would think. Maybe they trust each others on a higher level and therefore all Reed´s know all secrets. Or maybe just because those particular kids had special powers anyway.

But when they started telling Brann about the tourney and stuff....i was like.....HERE WE GO!!!!!