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Cantabile

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ETA: Also, one thing I hate about Santa is that people act like it's some freaking societal obligation that we all MUST keep. Look, you can tell your kids whatever the hell you want, but the rest of us don't have to play along.

This. If we don't play along with the show people seem to be sincerely horrified, as if we've broken one of society's most sacred mores. Then again, most people would be pretty pissed off if their kids were talking about God and an adult butted in with, "God doesn't exist, the hell are you smoking?"

Protecting people's illusions seems to be one of our societal obligations. Though the kids are going to find out the truth about Santa eventually, and I'm not sure if it makes much difference whether they find out this year or next.

At a 4th of July party a kid pointed at a red dot in the sky and asked what it was. An old lady quickly explained, "Oh, that is probably Rudolph going for some flight practice!" at which point my grandson intervened, "Are you drunk? That's a plane. And what form of bioluminescence could possibly produce a light that powerful?" The old lady hit him on the shoulder, glared at him with the Wrath of God, then pointed to the small child.

This is the dumbest thread I've seen in all the years on the this board, and I've seen the whole "why are we lying to Santa" thread before.

Why is it dumb? Mass-manipulation of children is a pretty serious issue.

WHAT ABOUT SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE!?!?!?!

Santa is a satanist, duh. He only chose that name because someone already registered the "Satan" username.

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Why is it dumb? Mass-manipulation of children is a pretty serious issue.

much like your other recent thread this one is for your own giggles.

but, come on. seriously.

what is really wrong with the magic and imagination of santa? should we instead take our children, sit them down explain to them not only is there no santa, but they cannot be anything with their lives, love will often end in utter destruction of one's esteem and trust, taxes will take a good portion of the money they earn, they will die and their bodies eaten by insects and had mother been better about her birth control they would have never been born?

yes, round up all the children and totally disillusion them rather than manipulate them.

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much like you other recent thread this one is for your own giggles.

but, come on. seriously.

what is really wrong with the magic and imagination of santa? should we instead take our children, sit them down explain to them not only is there no santa, but they cannot be anything with their lives, love will often end in utter destruction of one's esteem and trust, taxes will take a good portion of the money they earn, they will die and their bodies eaten by insects and had mother been better about her birth control they would have never been born?

yes, round up all the children and totally disillusion them rather than manipulate them.

That made me laugh out loud.

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what is really wrong with the magic and imagination of santa? should we instead take our children, sit them down explain to them not only is there no santa, but they cannot be anything with their lives, love will often end in utter destruction of one's esteem and trust, taxes will take a good portion of the money they earn, they will die and their bodies eaten by insects and had mother been better about her birth control they would have never been born?

yes, round up all the children and totally disillusion them rather than manipulate them.

If a child asks a question, we shouldn't completely distort the truth, sugar-coat it, then stick a cherry on top and forcefeed it to them. What do lies accomplish? In my experience it's adults that can't handle hard truths, not children. If a child can't respond well to them, then it's because of how they've been socialized, which places blame mostly on the parents. Children are natural seekers of knowledge, and can handle simple realities. If a child asks you what happens when one dies, and you explain to them the basic process of death, they're not going to go sob in a corner: death, to them, is something incredibly distant, and they can handle the explanation of biological decomposition. You don't have to lie and say, "You go to a better place, honey, where you can slide down rainbows made of icecream for all eternity with the angels."

And yes, children really should understand that what they are capable of life is not entirely dependent upon how hard they try. What's so bitter about that? We live in societies, and as such who we become, and what we are capable of, is as much dependent upon societal variables as it is by us. That's a simple reality, and kids can digest it. There's no need for this cult-of-self-esteem nonsense that we've got going, telling every child that they'll become billionaires, and presidents, and astronauts. That's setting them up for failure. By no means do you crush their dreams if they have them, as being an iconoclast for the sake of being an iconoclast serves no purpose, but be realistic with them.

Disillusionment can only occur if one has illusions in the first place. If you're always honest with kids then there's nothing to worry about. They want to learn about the world they live in, and can accept the truths. They're not going to truly understand these things until they experience them for themselves, of course.

Cantabile: Concerned Grandfather or Sneaky Troll?

Neither :P I'm not really all that concerned. As I said, most kids turn out perfectly fine despite being lied to about Santa, and I doubt psychologists are going to come out with reports on how believing in Santa has ruined our species. I'd much prefer if adults didn't lie and sugarcoat things to kids in the first place, but that's not going to happen. And people seem to be doing okay despite all the sugar-coated bs they're fed as children, so I'm not too worried.

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I love that people lie to their children about Santa Claus. If the child is smart, the moment they realize Santa is a lie they will begin to question the other nonsense fed to them.

It makes for better human beings.

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I love that people lie to their children about Santa Claus. If the child is smart, the moment they realize Santa is a lie they will begin to question the other nonsense fed to them.

It makes for better human beings.

Do they really question everything else, though? With Santa it's easy to just shrug it off with, "Well, they only lie to kids about it, to make the kids happy," but with things like religious belief, politics, racism, sexism, and all those other things people often get from their parents, they can't use that logic, because all the adults share those beliefs as well.

I don't know of anyone that questioned anything else their parents taught them when they realize Santa isn't real.

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I love that people lie to their children about Santa Claus. If the child is smart, the moment they realize Santa is a lie they will begin to question the other nonsense fed to them.

It makes for better human beings.

True. However, if the child works out that Santa Claus is total horseshit but strings their parents along for another few years with a mathmatically-based formulae on how many presents they should get from Santa versus their parents, I think that also counts.

Not that I did that, of course. :leaving:

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Folks, stick to the topic at hand. I don't want spill-over from other threads or personal aspersions. If you want to hash something out with someone, PM them or e-mail or whatever, don't bring it to the thread.

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True. However, if the child works out that Santa Claus is total horseshit but strings their parents along for another few years with a mathmatically-based formulae on how many presents they should get from Santa versus their parents, I think that also counts.

Not that I did that, of course. :leaving:

I'd say that's fair. It sort of makes you the Muad'dib of Christmas.

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I love that people lie to their children about Santa Claus. If the child is smart, the moment they realize Santa is a lie they will begin to question the other nonsense fed to them.

It makes for better human beings.

OTOH, if the child is dumb, they will soon find a replacement for Santa :)

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what is really wrong with the magic and imagination of santa? should we instead take our children, sit them down explain to them not only is there no santa, but they cannot be anything with their lives, love will often end in utter destruction of one's esteem and trust, taxes will take a good portion of the money they earn, they will die and their bodies eaten by insects and had mother been better about her birth control they would have never been born?

yes, round up all the children and totally disillusion them rather than manipulate them.

Unless you're joking, I have to again point out the strawman here: No Santa = kids are fed cynicism and despair. Which of course is completely ridiculous. I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face: the actual real world is full of wonders. Lies are unnecessary.

Though Santa does have a big point in favor of it: it's easy. I'm not being sarcastic: a parent running around during the holidays can get pretty stressed out, so some readymade fun is a handy thing. I am firmly of the belief that you can replace Santa with other equally fun, non-lie based activities, but it takes some extra work.

And in the end, if no harm comes from it, I can't really argue with the "easy to use" argument.

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I'd like to see a study done to see if kids from different countries work out the myth earlier than others. In our (read my brothers and I) case it was pretty easy once we realised that the fact we didn't have a chimney in the house made his entrance somewhat problematic.

Also, running around as a big guy in a full body suit trimmed in fur does not make sense when its 100 degrees F outside.

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Why are you on a fantasy message board?

A little imagination never hurt anyone.

I'm specifically addressing the "Santa or cynical sadness" false choice strawman. I've conceded that Santa doesn't hurt anyone.

Though a lot of imagination can hurt people...WARNING: Religion tangent. Abort, abort! *hits eject button*

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Though Santa does have a big point in favor of it: it's easy.

There was a thread a few weeks ago about strategies for hiding presents from kids, that shows that it does take some effort from adults :P Other than the worry of kids finding the presents, or uncovering the truth, there's the worries of other kids shattering it for them, and having to console your poor child.

The most stressful thing for me, personally, was hiding the presents under the tree. Sometimes the kids are determined to stay up waiting for Santa, or are light sleepers, or demand to sleep in the living room with the tree, etc. I would always worry about my kids waking up and catching me in the act.

How awful would it be to be disillusioned on Christmas night?

Why are you on a fantasy message board?

A little imagination never hurt anyone.

I don't think many of us would approve of a conspiracy to convince kids that during winter Santa Wight's sleigh comes soaring over the Wall, carried by flying ice spiders, to deliver medieval weaponry to all the good little boys and girls :D

The thing about imagination is that we know the things we imagine aren't real. We might be able to immerse ourselves in them, but we don't honestly think that Luke Skywalker is going to show up at our house. Santa defiles the line between reality and fiction, and turns imagination into actuality.

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Santa is way better any way. What's more impressive: saving the universe from the thrall of evil Sith lords, or eating billions of milk and cookies in a single night, all while still managing to travel across the entire planet, visiting every house? I think the answer is clear.

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