Santa

[MercenaryChef]

cantable, did you honestly use this same logic of parenting in raising your own alleged children?

what of being a kid? what of imagination, perceiving magic and fantasy? what of just being a fucking kid? they are not adults. no. just because they may grow into them doesn't mean they are currently.

i am certain no single sane adult today or ever is totally fucked by knowing that santa was a fraud perpetrated by their families. the ones who are fucked over finding this out are fucked for reasons that this does not have anything to do with father christmas, the easter hare, the tooth elf or any other made up thing of childhood whimsy.

lighten the fuck up, old man.

[Rhadamanth]

cantable, did you honestly use this same logic of parenting in raising your own alleged children?what of being a kid? what of imagination, perceiving magic and fantasy? what of just being a fucking kid? they are not adults. no. just because they may grow into them doesn't mean they are currently. i am certain no single sane adult today or ever is totally fucked by knowing that santa was a fraud perpetrated by their families. the ones who are fucked over finding this out are fucked for reasons that this does not have anything to do with father christmas, the easter hare, the tooth elf or any other made up thing of childhood whimsy. lighten the fuck up, old man.

Agreed. As long as Santa doesn't get wood when your kid sits on his lap, he's an okay fellow.

[Cantabile]

cantable, did you honestly use this same logic of parenting in raising your own alleged children?

what of being a kid? what of imagination, perceiving magic and fantasy? what of just being a fucking kid? they are not adults. no. just because they may grow into them doesn't mean they are currently.

i am certain no single sane adult today or ever is totally fucked by knowing that santa was a fraud perpetrated by their families. the ones who are fucked over finding this out are fucked for reasons that this does not have anything to do with father christmas, the easter hare, the tooth elf or any other made up thing of childhood whimsy.

lighten the fuck up, old man.

I know, I know, and I've said before that I don't think that Santa is desecrating society, or that kids are going to suffer harm from it. I'm not demanding a cultural genocide on the fat red man. For most kids it is a perfectly harmless belief, I acknowledge that.

And I also stated that I'm perfectly okay with imagination, magic, and fantasy. What I'm not okay with is society lying to children and making them believe that a fictional character is a concrete reality. My posts on the previous page are more elaborate explanations of how I feel about that.

Perhaps I am coming off more strongly than I intend to. This isn't a topic that keeps me up at night, and I am not going on a crusade to erase Santa. This is a pinprick in the black hole that is the world's problems.

I never got to believe in Santa, my parents were all like "More evidence that these Christians are just unbelieving pagans."

Does anyone even really view Christmas as a Christian holiday anymore? I can't really imagine it being more pagan or an act of commercialism than it is at this point.

[MercenaryChef]

Agreed. As long as Santa doesn't get wood when your kid sits on his lap, he's an okay fellow.

unless santa is also a relative of said child. and then if the child is an adult cantable can rationalize the hell out of it!

incest amongst adults=awesome

lying to kids about santa=shit

[Cantabile]

unless santa is also a relative of said child. and then if the child is an adult cantable can rationalize the hell out of it!

incest amongst adults=awesome

lying to kids about santa=shit

What are you talking about? When have I ever stated that incest between children and adults is okay? The thread on incest is talking about consenting adults, not children sitting on Santa's lap. If you have something to say about my views on incest, then please post in that thread, but keep the topic out of this one.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Once again, please keep the personal attacks out of it.

[/MOD]

[Rhadamanth]

Right, we should stick to attacking Santa. He's not real... or is he :ph34r:

[Liadin]

Does anyone even really view Christmas as a Christian holiday anymore? I can't really imagine it being more pagan or an act of commercialism than it is at this point.

What do you find "pagan" about Christmas?

And, yes, they do. Christians do, for one. As do most people I know who belong to non-Christian religions. It's mostly just us atheists who don't.

[Cantabile]

What do you find "pagan" about Christmas?

And, yes, they do. Christians do, for one. As do most people I know who belong to non-Christian religions. It's mostly just us atheists who don't.

I should have said 'secular,' not 'pagan,' my mistake. From what I remember of the history of Christmas, it is a pagan holiday, though. But all the modern things we associate with Christmas are scular: mistletoe, greeting cards, Christmas trees, lights, all the decorations, Santa, the reindeer, Frosty the Snowman and all the countless myths and stories, most Christmas movies, and a lot of Christmas music which doesn't involve Christianity, as well as the gift-giving.

Secular through and through :)

[lessthanluke]

I should have said 'secular,' not 'pagan,' my mistake. From what I remember of the history of Christmas, it is a pagan holiday, though. But all the modern things we associate with Christmas are scular: mistletoe, greeting cards, Christmas trees, lights, all the decorations, Santa, the reindeer, Frosty the Snowman and all the countless myths and stories, most Christmas movies, and a lot of Christmas music which doesn't involve Christianity, as well as the gift-giving.

Secular through and through :)

tl;dr

Can you ever reply with something that isn't an essay?

[Cantabile]

tl;dr

Can you ever reply with something that isn't an essay?

Just be glad I don't type my posts in a valley-girl accent :P

[Liadin]

I should have said 'secular,' not 'pagan,' my mistake. From what I remember of the history of Christmas, it is a pagan holiday, though. But all the modern things we associate with Christmas are scular: mistletoe, greeting cards, Christmas trees, lights, all the decorations, Santa, the reindeer, Frosty the Snowman and all the countless myths and stories, most Christmas movies, and a lot of Christmas music which doesn't involve Christianity, as well as the gift-giving.

Secular through and through :)

All the things you associate with Christmas might be secular, but that's because you're not religious. If you were, you'd think of Jesus, nativity scenes/plays, Christmas Eve candlelight services, the three wise men, and so on. Most Christmas songs are religious, nativity scenes are a major part of Christmas decorations, most people have angels and so forth on their trees, and people like my cousins send out Christmas cards that talk more about God than what their families have been up to all year.

I'm not disputing that Christmas can be secular, as it certainly is for me, or that there was an older holiday in place before Christians replaced it with Christmas. And sure, most of us--probably even the more religious among us--don't look at a wreath and think of Jesus. But you asked if most people out there think of Christmas as a Christian holiday (you live in San Francisco, right?), and at least in most of the U.S., the answer is absolutely yes.

[Negative]

I'm sure I could word is much nicer, so let's say I do. Do you honestly believe it is in the kids best interest to know of a sexual act? Because if you leave out the sexual act you are lying to them. Children need to be children and they really don't need to know about these things at such a young age.

I read about it around age 4-5. When I was 7, my mother was pregnant with my sister; I chose to believe that she had been artificially inseminated because the alternative was too icky to consider.

Being a child is all about the lack of responsibility, really.

[MinDonner]

tl;dr

Can you ever reply with something that isn't an essay?

Luke, seriously? That was one paragraph. How on earth did you even get through ASoIaF if that's too long?

You're just being hostile for the sake of it now. Not cool.

[afterroots]

The hostility towards Cantible in general in the thread is pathetic. He never treats any of the posters as far as i've seen with any disrespect whatsoever, even when other posters are blatantly hostile towards him. Is it so hard to converse civilly?

[Phantom]

LOVE guys. It's sexy AND cool.

...And Santa says be good, damnit.

[Spastic Plastic]

tl;dr

Can you ever reply with something that isn't an essay?

You may not know this, but adult conversations usually don't consist of trading one-liners.

[Starkess]

I am really not understanding the false dichotomies here. Just because one doesn't want to actively convince their child of a lie doesn't mean one is running around crushing hopes and dreams. Honestly.

Again, from my personal experience, when I asked my parents where babies come from and what sex was (I'd heard the word on the playground, I was maybe 5-6), they gave me a very simple explanation of penis vs. vagina. I remember my mom even drawing a vague picture that looked a lot like Florida. Heh. Anyway, I fail to see how this was a terrible thing or made my childhood any less a childhood.

Encouraging imagination I'm all for, but purposefully blurring the lines between fantasy and reality just seems messed up to me.

It reminds me of a scene from Anne of Green Gables, where Anne is telling one of the twins about a fairy who comes around at night and makes all the stars or something. Davy, who had previously learned a hard lesson about telling lies, objects. And, exasperated, she says "Davy, can't you tell the difference between a fairy tale and a falsehood?" There's nothing wrong with fairy tales like Santa, but trying to insist that they are reality can be a) confusing for kids and B) pointless.

[Cantabile]

I'm not disputing that Christmas can be secular, as it certainly is for me, or that there was an older holiday in place before Christians replaced it with Christmas. And sure, most of us--probably even the more religious among us--don't look at a wreath and think of Jesus. But you asked if most people out there think of Christmas as a Christian holiday (you live in San Francisco, right?), and at least in most of the U.S., the answer is absolutely yes.

You're right, I'm letting my bias as an atheist cloud my view on this. Most Christian families I know participate more in the secular traditions, and commercialism aspect, but I can how people who are more strongly Christian would see it as primarily a religious holiday.

[Ken Stone]

I remember when I first figured out Santa wasn't real, it hit me pretty hard. I didn't care necessarily about the myth itself, but I couldn't wrap my mind around the depth of the conspiracy. I could handle the idea that my parents might lie to me for certain reasons, but with Santa, EVERYONE was in on it. I figured that my parents didn't write the songs, or hire the guy who pretended to be Santa at the mall. Plus my parents weren't that creative, there was no way they could have made it all up. So who did? And to what purpose? It drove me crazy.

I think what it really comes down to is childhood myths like Santa and the Easter Bunny serve to prepare children for world in which society will lie to you, for no conceivable purpose. What is money? What is time? What are ethics? They are the grown up version of Santa Claus.