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Calibandar

Thousandfold Thought spoiler thread

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From a rather breathtaking 100 final pages, which I just read.

Obviously, major spoiler to follow......

First I have to state the things that I couldn't figure out. Let me know your thoughts please.

1) Why does Moenghus have to die, according to Kellhus? Why does he do it? I've read the section a couple of times but I do not get a proper explanation. I guess the closest I come to is that Kellhus fears that Moenghus wishes to take his place and become Aspect Emperor instead, but Kellhus then speaks of "apocalyptic conspiracies" and " a counterfeit war against Golgotterath". Is he saying that Moenghus was or would have been in league with the No-God? Because given everything else we hear, that would be absurd. Moenghus strongly opposed them as much as he could, that much is clear. So why kill him?

2) I simply cannot see how Moenghus dies. Kellhus has stabbed him. Cnaiur comes to him, and the following happens:

*Cnaiur admits to loving him, and kisses him on the mouth after Moenghus says he needs his strength.

*Cnaiur graps into his breeches and Moenghus gasps, jerks and spasms as Cnaiur rolls out the chorea across his cheek.White light flares from Moenghus' sockets. "But then his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them".

*Cnaiur cries out "not again!" , "how could you leave me?".

What I don't get is:

a) How does Moenghus die? Is it the Chorea?

B) If it is the chorea, why does Cnaiur bring it forth if he doesn't want Moenghus to die?

c) What does Moenghus need from Cnaiur anyway that requires his strength? I just don't get that part . Does he need Cnaiur to give him air? It seems odd that Moenghus would ask that, knowing he was about do die.

This whole section is an unsatisfying blur to me.

3) Why does Achamian survive? No explanation is given for this. The Ciphrang beats him and then drags him away into the sky. How does he survive? Or rather, why? If it is as the Ciphrang says and it is only an eye that he came for, as per his Summoner's intstruction (Iyokus), then why does he not lose one?

4) Why did the Ciphrang go to the tent in which Little Moenghus lay, the one guarded by the single Hundred Pillars guardsmen? Presumably to ask after Achamian's whereabouts, as he later does, but the whole scene seemed rather odd to me.

5) Any idea what the secret could be that the Inchoroi Synthese (Aurang) tells the little boy?

6) On another note, what was it that Seswatha told Celomos's son that he would find in the heart of Golgotterath, the thing that led him to go there?

Clearly he didn't know he was searching for the Heron Spear, so what was it...?

7) Any idea what's up with that final Seswatha dream Achamian has, in which he sees Anaxophus becoming some sort of puppet of the No-God, repeating all his words just like the Sranc? What does this indicate?

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Was wondering if you had read this yet? I don't think I can respond to all your queries (lot to take in in the book) but my take on a few:

1) Why does Moenghus have to die, according to Kellhus?

Kellhus saw that his father would eventually leave his self imposed solitude and challenge him sometime in the future. Moenghus doesn't seem to believe the No-God exists anymore as an entity. He thinks Kellhus has gone insane, that what Kellhus thinks are messages from the No-God are really just a symptom of the madness. Kellhus realizes that after he rejects his father's path, Moenghus will feel the need to oppose him by ridding the Earwa of all the world born whose souls commune with and let in the Outside. Moenghus was still too Dunyain: what was compliant had to isolated from what was unruly and intractable.

2) I simply cannot see how Moenghus dies.

He dies from the chorae. Cnaiur was constantly at war with the manipulations of the Anasurimbors and his own identity; he truly did go mad. He can no longer distinguish reality; his sword drops from a strangers hand for example. He loves and hates Moenghus. He thinks Moenghus burns because of the force of their passion while it is in fact from the chorae. His madness allows him to slough off some of the responsiblity for killing his lover; since he doesn't know where he begins or ends, he can't have been the one to kill him. As for what Moenghus tries to take from him, I can only guess that he tries to take his life force from him in some way...

3) Why does Achamian survive?

This is unclear but the Ciphrang is apparantly injured and trailed blood. Presumably it died of it injuries before delivering Achamian to his fate.

6) On another note, what was it that Seswatha told Celomos's son that he would find in the heart of Golgotterath

The prince thought their main goal was to rescue his beloved concubine. Seswatha let him believe this so that they could find the Heron Spear. Seswatha knew that she was already dead or beyond hope, thus the prince's feeling of betrayal.

7) Any idea what's up with that final Seswatha dream Achamian has,

There seems to be a juxtapostion of Achamian's dreams of what happened to Seswatha while something was speaking to Achamian himself, asking him what he was seeing. Perhaps Kellhus exploring the extent of his magicks, trying to find out what will come. Achamian realizes that things were different this time.

May not be right but that is understanding of things :unsure:

Myself, I'm wondering what role the other Dunyain will play in the future series. Will Kellhus anticapate them being a threat to him as well? What would it take to make them send out a force to protect the community as whole?

I'm also curious about the time frames. A 20 year gap will make Achaiman what, in his sixties at least, Esmenet in her fifties? Will Kellhus' conditioning diminish the effects of age? Can't recall if the life expectancy of the Dunyain was ever discussed in the series. Moenghus seems to have aged normally, though this will have been due to his self imposed exile and deprivations. It will be interesting to see how Bakker will develop Kellhus outside the rarified environment of the holy war with its passionate faith and constant culling of unbelievers. As Aspect-Emporer he'll have to deal with many world-born, the vast bulk of whom will be outside his sphere of personal influence. Moenghus had to withdraw from society to avoid being 'perverted' by it; can Kellhus help but being drawn into the mundanity of everyday life?

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Wow, reading the 'A place to recover' part makes me think this will be quite the final book. Not reading the thread though, oooh no

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scrolled reallyfast past the other posts, because I don't want to be spoiled. But, judging from the "place to recover" I'm guessing it was an ass-whupper of an ending? gods...must purchase book now.

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scrolled reallyfast past the other posts, because I don't want to be spoiled. But, judging from the "place to recover" I'm guessing it was an ass-whupper of an ending? gods...must purchase book now.

Me too! I get my copy tomorrow!

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Has there ever been a trilogy written just to set up a villian for the next series before?

I would give my left testicle for the Aspect Emperor right now.

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I scrolled real fast to the end of this thread to ask, has any Uk boarder who ordered from amazon.ca gotten their copy yet? and if yes, when did you order and when did the order arrive, amazon.ca is giving me a jan to march window and i find this totally unacceptable....

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shortstark, I'm pretty sure Calibandar ordered his from Amazon.ca, so I can't imagine you'll be waiting too much longer. (Don't read further, shortstark.)

As for your TTT questions, Calibandar:

1 & 2) I started answering these two, but, upon rereading Logan's answers, I realized he'd said everything I would have but probably more clearly and completely than I could've, so just put me down for 'What Logan said' here.

3) Yeah, it wasn't clear. The possibilities that occurred to me: Iyokus didn't want Achamian dead, the Ciphrang wasn't strong enough at that point or ran out of time or whatever, or some other power intervened to save him (Seswatha comes to mind, I guess -- I've long hoped/wondered if Akka wasn't going to in some way become Seswatha).

4) I read it as, like you said, the Ciphrang was just looking for Achamian.

5) No idea.

6) His lover, Aulisi.

Myself, I'm wondering what role the other Dunyain will play in the future series.

I seem to recall Kellhus imagining them all filing down into some chamber under Ishual to kill themselves over being contaminated by Moenghus's sendings. I read it at the time (it was in an earlier book) as all of them having committed suicide, but maybe it was just the elders.

I have a TTT question of my own:

8) What becomes of Cnaiur? I reread that scene more than once and am just not sure. Did the Serwe skin-spy kill him, were they transported away by Aurang, did he just faint?

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I seem to recall Kellhus imagining them all filing down into some chamber under Ishual to kill themselves over being contaminated by Moenghus's sendings. I read it at the time (it was in an earlier book) as all of them having committed suicide, but maybe it was just the elders.

I have a TTT question of my own:

8) What becomes of Cnaiur? I reread that scene more than once and am just not sure. Did the Serwe skin-spy kill him, were they transported away by Aurang, did he just faint?

I may have missed this vision but if you mean at the very beginning of the series, it was the individuals whom Moenghus had made contact with who isolated themselves, to prevent further contamination. I believe the community as a whole still exists.

I too wonder what will become of Cnaiur. He thinks about giving himself a final swazond across his own throat, then sees 'Serwe' and darkness covers both of them. I think he'll still be around for the next series but don't know in what form. Would be a shame if he's some kind of perverted servant of the Consult and not good ole pyscho 'Cnair, most violent of men'. :)

I scrolled real fast to the end of this thread to ask, has any Uk boarder who ordered from amazon.ca gotten their copy yet?

Did anyone get their copy from Amazon yet? Would seem strange that they would pick on certain countries. I ordered from the Chapters site, which I do for any book specifically released early in Canada. They're the online branch of the big Indigo/Chapters/Coles book chain here so they get the books same time as the stores. Not sure if that's the case for Amazon.ca. I realize this doesn't help anyone now, but prices and shipping are usually close to the same.

Of course now that the first series is done we should be asking the really important questions like whether Bashrags have wings, if Non-men have slightly pointed or really pointed ears and if Aragorn could take Kellhus in a fight :) (sorry spent too much time on Tolkien usenet boards and forums :blush: )

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Has there ever been a trilogy written just to set up a villian for the next series before?

I would give my left testicle for the Aspect Emperor right now.

I don't know about entire series, but certainly between novels in the same series this idea reminds me of Steerpike being set up in Titus Alone to be the main villain in Gormenghast.

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3) Why does Achamian survive? No explanation is given for this. The Ciphrang beats him and then drags him away into the sky. How does he survive? Or rather, why? If it is as the Ciphrang says and it is only an eye that he came for, as per his Summoner's intstruction (Iyokus), then why does he not lose one?

I don't think the "eye" quote is meant to be taken literally. It was established earlier that Iyokus had thought it was a mistake torturing Akka and felt bad about it after the fact. He also knows that Akka could've easily had him killed, yet he "only" took revenge for his friend. Or he just could've feared the consequences if he killed Kellhus' Vizer.

I think the purpose of all of this was to establish Iyokus as a legitimate threat, both in Akka's eyes and the eyes of the reader as he'll no doubt figure pretty heavily in the next couple books.

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Rhaco

Not all the Dunyain killed themselves, just those that were "contaminated' by Moenghus. In TTT we hear Kellhus say to Moenghus that he contacted those that he knew from before his exile, so presumably he killed more elder Dunyain than younger ones.

Interesting to learn btw that the sheer effort of sending out dreams to the Dunyain nearly undid Moenghus, because Ishual is so far away, and because that sort of thing is very hard to do.

Re;Cnaiur

A lot of people seem to think his fate is in doubt. I guess I can see why because Scott didn't explicitly pronouce him dead, but IMO he is a dead man. In his final scene, we see that he thinks about his final swazond. This is supposedly where he kills himself, but we didn't get anyone's confirmation afterwards that he is dead.

However, when Achamian returns to Shimeh and finds mighty Kellhus coronated, he remarks that there is no Eleazaras there, no Serwe, no Conphas and no Cnaiur. I thought this was Scott's way of saying that Cnaiur is dead, since the three others mentioned are confirmed as dead.

Furthermore, Cnaiur is 45 years old now. I don't think he still has a role to play as a 65-year old Scylvendi. He'll be way, way past his prime by then, overrun by other Scylvendi if he should consider returning to them. I just don't see a point in his survival. His arc revolved all around Moenghus and his feelings for him and his refusal to admit to them. At the end, Moenghus is killed and he admits to himself that only ever loved Moenghus. End of story. I also don't see a role for him in terms of raising his own son because the child has been renounced by him "("you are not of the People") plus Little Moenghus is generally seen as Kellhus' child by Serwe; The world doesn't know the child is Cnaiur's.

The final page with Achamian clinched any doubts I had after the scene with him and Moenghus. It just seemed definitive to me that Cniaur was mentioned there as those who were no longer with us.

It'll be massively interesting to see what happens in the coming 20 years. How many children will Kellhus father, and of what gender. What to be of Little Moenghus?How will Kellhus evolve? Will we finally see more of the Nonmen? Will they ally with Kellhus? The Zeumi? What is it that Scott says he's planned for Cil-Aujas, the lost Nonman mansion? Where will Kellhus take up residence? How soon will he take in the North as well, since he already has many followers in Atrithau? When do the other Dunyain come into play (this is bound to happen)? What will the Consult do now?

BTW good to see that TTT shows us who the main known top members of the Consult are, as that question came up before a couple of times: Shauriatis, the Grandvizier who lives on to this day in an obscene form, Aurang and Aurax (one of which is bound to a Synthese form that limits his powers) and Mekeritrig, the former Nonman prince come Erratic).

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Re;Cnaiur

A lot of people seem to think his fate is in doubt. I guess I can see why because Scott didn't explicitly pronouce him dead, but IMO he is a dead man. In his final scene, we see that he thinks about his final swazond. This is supposedly where he kills himself, but we didn't get anyone's confirmation afterwards that he is dead.

Furthermore, Cnaiur is 45 years old now. I don't think he still has a role to play as a 65-year old Scylvendi. He'll be way, way past his prime by then, overrun by other Scylvendi if he should consider returning to them. I just don't see a point in his survival. His arc revolved all around Moenghus and his feelings for him and his refusal to admit to them. At the end, Moenghus is killed and he admits to himself that only ever loved Moenghus. End of story. I also don't see a role for him in terms of raising his own son because the child has been renounced by him "("you are not of the People") plus Little Moenghus is generally seen as Kellhus' child by Serwe; The world doesn't know the child is Cnaiur's.

He's pretty deep in thrall to the Consult now, with the Serwe skin spy, and probably soon a Moenghus doppleganger, leading him around. I just don't see them giving up a powerful tool like he is all that readily. Nin'jinjan received immortality for his service, or least extended youth, so Cnaiur could still be a factor. Just won't be the same old reaving barbarian we all know and love.

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Let's pose the question to Scott and see what he says. If he's dead there's no need to be ambiguous about it after all :)

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Let's pose the question to Scott and see what he says. If he's dead there's no need to be ambiguous about it after all :)

Well I guess that answered it. :/ Speculation threads don't seem as fun when you can get an immediated answer. Next thing you know GRRM will come on "...look you idiots, I spelled it out right in the text. Willa is..." :o

Three Seas Forum if people are wondering what we're talking about.

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I may have missed this vision but if you mean at the very beginning of the series, it was the individuals whom Moenghus had made contact with who isolated themselves, to prevent further contamination. I believe the community as a whole still exists.

I just reread that early part of TDTCB and there it does clearly seem it's just the elders/dreamers who killed themselves. I could've sworn there was something more, though, something later on that made me wonder if all the Dunyain might be dead (which that paragraph early in TDTCB certainly does not do). Dammit, guess I'll end up flipping through TDTCB and TWP tonight to try and find what I was thinking of. That is if I didn't just completely imagine it.

Well I guess that answered it. :/

Did it? :lol: His answer, assuming you guys are talking about the Q&A in the Author Q&A forum, wasn't exactly the clearest thing in the world. Cnaiur's entire arc or Cnaiur's arc in PON? Ellipsis?

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You guys are really pissing me off!! :P I am 150 pages into the TT and I cant wait to finish it, so I can read these posts :cry:

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Did it? :lol: His answer, assuming you guys are talking about the Q&A in the Author Q&A forum, wasn't exactly the clearest thing in the world. Cnaiur's entire arc or Cnaiur's arc in PON? Ellipsis?

I suppose it still could be in question. I'm reading this at work and that board is really dark in IE. I read it as 'Cnaiur's arc simply had to end' rather than 'it's the way Cnaiur's arc simply has to end' Hmmm... :huh:

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I actually didn't find the answer clarifying at all, as Scott expected. It makes me think that the Cnaiur as we know him is indeed gone, but that he may well turn up in Aspect Emperor, most likely related to the Consult, since he seems to have entered into some sort of alliance with them after all ( I always had a sense that this might happen given their people's past alliance). Someone has suggested that Cnaiur's great prowess might be preserved through the Tekne, which is probably correct.

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